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Post by jgf on Mar 25, 2017 18:09:30 GMT
Thieves' Guild Fences will not barter when outdoors ...but what to do when one stays outdoors?
According to UESP, Ongar's schedule is: "he still goes to sleep early in the morning, at 6am. After waking up at noon he immediately ventures outside for a quick two-hour breakfast at his favorite inn, Olav's Tap and Tack. At 2pm he heads back home and wanders around until 6pm when it is time to visit the inn once again. Here, he will spend a whopping twelve hours in the company of innkeeper Olav and the many Nord regulars. At 10pm he goes hungry and may go into sneak mode to obtain some food, a phenomenon that may cause a bit of trouble with the guards. If he finds any, he will find a seat and enjoy a late two-hour dinner. Between midnight and his bedtime, Olav will be the only person left at the inn, so Ongar will just stroll around until he returns to his house and finds his bed at 6am."
When I go to Bruma, 90% of the time Ongar is standing just outside his house or just outside that tavern ... and never moves! Last night I went there at 8:30PM, he was standing outside his house, so I waited, and waited, and waited; at 4AM I gave up, reloaded the game and went elsewhere.
Is there a console command to kick him into returning to his schedule? Or some other way around this irritant? (I always use Ongar because he is the easiest fence to locate.)
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 25, 2017 20:40:09 GMT
You can try either of these after loading a save...
Open console: Click on Ongar.
type either...
update3d or evp
ENTER
Close...see what happens.
If nothing happens...no change...chances are some mod you've had for a while has messed-up his AI. Remember: esps on the bottom of your load order trump those above if there are conflicts. Finding out which is the culprit can be the testy bit. The Oblivion Mod Manager has a conflict detector that you can run. But TSEdit might be better at spotting which ones changed any particular NPC's AI schedule.
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Post by jgf on Mar 25, 2017 23:06:49 GMT
Thanks, I'll give that a shot. But - what do those commands do? I found mention of evp as, apparently, "evaluate package"; but found no mention of update3d.
BOSS has done a decent job of informing me of known issues with mods, such as: "_Real_Lights.esp * Note: Breaks the Umbacano branch of The Collector quest, and causes save game bloating. * Note: Recommended to use All Natural's Real Lights implementation, as it doesn't suffer from this, fixes a huge number of bugs in the original, and can be used on its own." Guess who had Umbacano not buying statues.
But it also tells me: "ClocksOfCyrodiil.esp Active * Contains dirty edits: 46 ITM, 20 UDR records. Needs TES4Edit cleaning..." Have TES4Edit, but no idea what to look for, no idea what a ITM or UDR might be, nor even if this is an issue I need to address (I recall the exorbitant amount of time I wasted trying to find an issue MASH reported for a Morrowind mod, only to be told it was a minor nitpick which MASH noticed but had no material effect on the game).
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Post by naramoore on Mar 26, 2017 0:14:21 GMT
IDM = identical to master i.e. it not needed since it changes nothing UDR = Undeleted Reference = This is an object that has not been removed properly. it is possible for something to reference this and crash your game. They should be simple to fix. They are in Skyrim. One guide I quickly found was at cs.elderscrolls.com/index.php?title=TES4Edit_Cleaning_GuideI suspect that the cleaning quides for Skyrim would also work. There are a lot of those including one by Gopher
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 26, 2017 1:57:33 GMT
Update3d does just that. Resets the NPC's 3d state. It doesn't add clothes or food if any is missing. Just resets the NPC. EVP is indeed evaluate AI package. Some others... en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Console_Command_Tutorialen.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Console...beware, though. Some commands can bloat saves...adding items especially. Careful with cleaning some mods...wild/dirty edits aren't always wild or dirty. Better left alone if you're unsure. Generally, it's something the author of the mod does as he/she knows what is supposed to be a proper edit. The CS is known to create wild edits, but unless you're crashing constantly because of some suspected glitch...don't worry too much.
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Post by jgf on Mar 26, 2017 6:44:48 GMT
Well, returned to Bruma about 10PM; Ongar is standing outside his house. Tried both console commands:
evp returned "Picked Package Eat ()"
update3d returned "Script command "update3d" not found"
By midnight Ongar had moved to the front of the cathedral and stood there watching everyone leave the tavern. I returned to Aleswell.
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Post by jgf on Mar 26, 2017 6:57:27 GMT
IDM = identical to master i.e. it not needed since it changes nothing UDR = Undeleted Reference = This is an object that has not been removed properly. it is possible for something to reference this and crash your game. ... Thanks, I had searched for those acronyms to no avail. Most of the tutorials I perused seemed either too general (how to install, how to open a file, etc.) or too specific (expand this tree, look for this entry, etc.). I can follow instructions, but like to have an idea what I'm doing while following them. "Generally, it's something the author of the mod does as he/she knows what is supposed to be a proper edit. The CS is known to create wild edits, but unless you're crashing constantly because of some suspected glitch...don't worry too much." It seemed odd that a mod as popular as Clocks would have any serious issues. The only consistent crashes I have are the traditional Bethesda ones - play too long at one sitting and the game will crash (the chance of this rises exponentially with how long since you saved).
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 26, 2017 7:26:48 GMT
Well, returned to Bruma about 10PM; Ongar is standing outside his house. Tried both console commands: evp returned "Picked Package Eat ()" update3d returned "Script command "update3d" not found" By midnight Ongar had moved to the front of the cathedral and stood there watching everyone leave the tavern. I returned to Aleswell. Have to click on Ognar then type update3d. Eat packages with no food in the inventory get skipped after a while. Or the NPC will steal food if his/her responsibility is low enough. However, if he's not following his AI packages at all, something has mucked with it.
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 26, 2017 7:38:56 GMT
IDM = identical to master i.e. it not needed since it changes nothing UDR = Undeleted Reference = This is an object that has not been removed properly. it is possible for something to reference this and crash your game. ... Thanks, I had searched for those acronyms to no avail. Most of the tutorials I perused seemed either too general (how to install, how to open a file, etc.) or too specific (expand this tree, look for this entry, etc.). I can follow instructions, but like to have an idea what I'm doing while following them. "Generally, it's something the author of the mod does as he/she knows what is supposed to be a proper edit. The CS is known to create wild edits, but unless you're crashing constantly because of some suspected glitch...don't worry too much." It seemed odd that a mod as popular as Clocks would have any serious issues. The only consistent crashes I have are the traditional Bethesda ones - play too long at one sitting and the game will crash (the chance of this rises exponentially with how long since you saved). Indeed...COC is pretty good mod. I had to fix some AI pathing around some of the clock towers...but that's minor. The standard Oblivion crashes have all but been eliminated with the Engine Bug Fixes Mod...but you need OBSE. All the warning re: not working with version X are really old Oblivion builds...pre GOTY versions. www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/47085/?The long play crash bug can be almost eliminated with Purge Cell Buffers. Use the 'On Loading Version'. www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/9139/?You'll wonder where the crashes went...
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Post by jgf on Mar 26, 2017 17:10:16 GMT
..Have to click on Ognar then type update3d. ... Which I did.
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Post by jgf on Mar 26, 2017 17:41:46 GMT
... The long play crash bug can be almost eliminated with Purge Cell Buffers. ... I periodically do the "pcb" manually. I've read of another telltale for impending crashes, though no one seems to know exactly what is being referenced. The "tdt" command set to its minimum display shows four lines: FPS, two lines of "queued tasks" (these are always zero but will occasionally jump into the hundreds then immediately back to zero), and a "BSTask" reading. The latter is the important one; it starts at zero and increments as you play, though what it is displaying is a mystery and seems to have no direct bearing on how long you play or what you are doing - I've played for an hour, going in and out of dungeons, and it wasn't even reading 100; other times I load a game and walk down the road for five minutes and it's reading 120. The threads I read said 300 is the danger point, beyond that a crash is increasingly likely; my experience supports that, at around 300 small stutters are evident in the game, by 400 stutters are noticeable (though at one point, in a dungeon, I checked tdt and this was over 500 with no stuttering at all). But I've been following the recommendation to save and reload when the reading tops 300, and it seems to help. But you must exit the game entirely, to the desktop, not the menu, or "BSTask" does not reset.
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 26, 2017 21:49:14 GMT
Hmmmm...perhaps update3d is an OBSE added command. EVP is similar...pick the proper package...but if the NPC doesn't have or can not find food, he'll choose a default wander package if available...or nothing if not available (stand still).
Ongar has a default home services package as his default (wander 512 near his location in the CS which is his house) which might well be the problem with the dude. I'll have to check next time I'm up there. A lot of the stock AI have porked AI for this reason or that.
The Stutter Remover is pretty good a governing heavy AI action. The game will slow down slightly rather than stutter...which feels nice, at least.
The PCB mod I posted discharges on load screens automatically. I have ours set to 5. 1 or 0 clears things out the most often, obviously...but critters chasing you through doorways...etc...won't follow after you like they should.
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Post by Sniffles on Mar 26, 2017 22:45:31 GMT
You could simply delete this Ongar then spawn a new one with placeatme. This may reset any acquired problems and possibly override/eliminate goofs installed by mods. That is, the formID object may be corrupted so a spiffy new version might fix the issue. If a mod has messed/altered up Bruma faction or Thieves Guild, or a saved game got corrupted that would fix.
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Post by jgf on Mar 27, 2017 0:42:02 GMT
...but if the NPC doesn't have or can not find food, he'll choose a default wander package if available...or nothing if not available (stand still). ... According to UESP Ongar goes to Olav's tavern to eat, and will steal food while there (I've yet to witness this ...though maybe that just means he's a good thief, lol). He does move around outside, just doesn't go in the tavern or his house when he should, and tends to stand in one place for hours. Went to Bruma early in the morning and he was home asleep ... briefly ..."Wake up, you! Take this hot merchandise off my hands!" A simple solution would be for him to barter anywhere, but no doubt that is hard-coded into his fence status.
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 27, 2017 15:05:54 GMT
It's not hard coded. All service packages are standard AI packages...or you could even make your own. Merchant/Fence is the 'profession' and Thieves Guild is the faction. Together they give the appropriate reactions/dialogue, etc.
His just happens to have a default home service package (should always offer services inside his house when not eating) rather than a universal default wander package as his last package option. Normally, I give NPCs that I build a default wander package at the bottom so if they pick nothing else...at least they'll wander around rather than stand still.
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