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Post by dogonporch on Mar 10, 2019 16:29:58 GMT
But in Oblivion there is no such suspense; go anywhere you like, explore any areas, knowing that any opponents you encounter will be scaled to your player level. This also makes for a monotonous game - what's the difference being level five and fighting a level five rat and being level fifty and fighting a level fifty rat? It is much more interesting to encounter different creatures as you level up and explore farther. Long since fixed. There are hundreds of new critters and monsters and many mods unlevel the lists. I fear flesh crawlers...lol. They come in packs and move like lightning. Imagine one of those things from Alien...the babies. As for limited size...the Oblivion exterior world was plopped down in the middle leaving vast unused areas in each direction. These have since been filled-in by various mods.
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Post by jgf on Mar 11, 2019 3:15:54 GMT
...My first encounter of Morrowind was probably typical. Wander the town. Go check out the local cave WHOMP!! ... Lol, how true! My first day in the game, not a clue what I'm supposed to be doing; townspeople keep telling me someone should do something about those bandits near town; "Oh, that's my task". So off I go, and got my butt kicked; try better weapons (what little i can afford), got my butt kicked again. Ultimately, at the end of my first day I've been killed four times (once by a cliffracer), am flat broke, and still no idea what I should be doing. ("Take this package to Balmora." Yeah, right. I've seen what happens when I listen to you folk.)
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Post by jgf on Mar 11, 2019 4:57:26 GMT
...Long since fixed. There are hundreds of new critters and monsters and many mods unlevel the lists. I fear flesh crawlers...lol. They come in packs and move like lightning. Imagine one of those things from Alien...the babies. But personal preference enters here. Most such mods for Oblivion, as with Morrowind or other such games, fall afoul of one or more of three issues (you touch on one of them): 1 - Too many creatures added; you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a cat. 2 - Creatures too powerful; every encounter turns into a boss fight. 3 - Creatures not lore compatible ("new" creatures). Though in my opinion Oblivion itself is not lore friendly; Cyrodiil and Morrowind are neighboring countries, yet Morrowind gave us a fascinating fantasy world of wizards living in giant hollow mushrooms, of kagouti and guar and nix-hounds and kwama, while Oblivion gave us a mundane earth environment of walled medieval towns, of oaks and willows and horses and bears and lions ...even two creatures from earth mythology - unicorns and minotaurs. It's difficult to accept these two games supposedly take place on the same world. The mods which remove scaling never explain how they did it or what their parameters were ("all creatures are now at their default levels" ...but what are the defaults? is it a universal default or individual for each type of creature? or did the mod creator implement his own arbitrary level scheme?). As for limited size...the Oblivion exterior world was plopped down in the middle leaving vast unused areas in each direction. These have since been filled-in by various mods. But even using these areas Oblivion is still smaller than Morrowind. And these various mods have yet to find a home in my game; one highly recommended one crashes my game on loading, several others are incomplete and, at this late date, will probably never be finished (one has nice landscaping and towns but no NPCs or quests), some do not fit lore (as I view it) or are more interested in providing a non-stop hack-and-slash festival than interesting quests and characters. Now, I do not castigate anyone's work; mod creators make what they like for a game and share with us. When their view and my view of the game world are congruent I have something new to add to my game.
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Post by amgepo on Mar 11, 2019 14:25:57 GMT
There are many areas where Morrowind is way over Oblivion. But not the map size. Oblivion world space is more than twice the size of the Morrowind one. It does look bigger, because of the fog and the oposite influence of orografy.
In Morrowind there is the red mountain in the middle (no straight paths between different places) while in Oblivion imperial city can be seen from everywhere (I guess the idea was to show how huge the city was, but what they achieve was to make the game world feel small).
There are some other factors making Oblivion look smaller, like the posibility to fast travel from anywhere to anywhere, or being able to run constantly (magical boots or player made combos apart, if you try running constantly in Morrowind, the first time you are attacked you will start the combat exausted and you will end up dead.
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Post by wotan on Mar 11, 2019 15:23:56 GMT
I've been searching a bit on the topic and this is what I came up with in world space size:
Morrowind: 9.3 square miles Oblivion: 22 square miles Skyrim: 14.5 square miles
You can compare this to:
Fallout 3: roughly 50 square miles Fallout New Vegas: 21 square miles
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Post by jgf on Mar 11, 2019 15:33:52 GMT
I've been searching a bit on the topic and this is what I came up with in world space size: Morrowind: 9.3 square miles Oblivion: 22 square miles Skyrim: 14.5 square miles ... Interesting. How did you compute that? (Given that, to my knowledge, no distances are listed anywhere in the games.)
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Post by jgf on Mar 11, 2019 16:46:46 GMT
There are many areas where Morrowind is way over Oblivion. But not the map size. Oblivion world space is more than twice the size of the Morrowind one. It does look bigger, because of the fog and the oposite influence of orografy. In Morrowind there is the red mountain in the middle (no straight paths between different places) while in Oblivion imperial city can be seen from everywhere (I guess the idea was to show how huge the city was, but what they achieve was to make the game world feel small). There are some other factors making Oblivion look smaller, like the posibility to fast travel from anywhere to anywhere, or being able to run constantly (magical boots or player made combos apart, if you try running constantly in Morrowind, the first time you are attacked you will start the combat exausted and you will end up dead. My comments are based solely on impressions from traveling in both games. Constance and I traveling from Seyda Neen to Dagon Fel - a long arduous journey in which we usually camp out along the way. Vilja and i travel from Anvil to Cheydinhal - a nice afternoon walk. But perhaps Morowind seems larger because its terrain is more varied, as are the sights - here's a daedric shrine, there's a Dwemer ruin; Oblivion is comparatively homogenous. I agree about running; in Morrowind you run a couple of minutes then trudge along at a snail's pace a couple more while your fatigue replenishes; in Oblivion you can run non-stop across country, up mountains, anywhere, and never tire ...just don't jump, that drains fatigue quickly. But fast travel is decidedly overdone in Oblivion, especially since it costs nothing. Fast travel in Morrowind was more complicated; propylon chambers only took you to other propylon chambers, silt striders only to other silt strider stations, guild guides only to other guild halls; and all cost money except the propylons, which were all out in the boondocks anyway. But you could get across the island quickly once familiar with all these - take a ship to a convenient coastal town, run across town to a silt strider, take it to another town, go to the mages guild and use the guide to another town, out of that town to a propylon chamber, out of that to your destination. Not to mention intervention scrolls and mark/recall spells. Though I admit to occasionally using it, I think fast travel actually detracts from both games simply because it is too easily available. The fact that in default Oblivion you can see everything from everywhere decidedly lessens any sense of a large landscape, leading me to use the "Always Foggy" mod; now I can barely discern IC from Aleswell cottage. Not exactly realistic either, but at least it no longer seems everything is just across the street. Some years ago we had a similar discussion regarding Morrowind and the MGE utility; one of its functions allowed you to adjust fog, which I set for about 200 yards visibility, but one lady deemed that heinous, saying she liked being able to levitate and see the entire island clearly. (For RL comparison, i can look around from the roof of the high-rise where I live and things are getting "lost in the mist" at around three miles; the office towers downtown are exactly two miles away and even on a clear day they are just starting to fade.)
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 11, 2019 16:53:24 GMT
Oblivion's normal world is a 140 x 140 cell grid...rather large. A cell is roughly 100 meters square by rough estimate.
However, let's not forget that over the last decade, many new world spaces have been created by third parties. Not to mention, the underground world...which in this build of mine is way more vast than the above ground world. And I'm not talking dungeons and caves...
The advantage Oblivion has is that it is really just a template for you to play on. The stock quests...are dumb for the most part...but are also examples for you to use to create better ones. Same with the world space. Don't like it? Change it. My install of Oblivion is over ten years old and still going...you wouldn't recognize most locations anymore.
My wife on a whim started the Main Quest at level 25...she now regrets it. Yup...it was lame the first time through...lol. Oddly, there are very few mods that alter Hell/Oblivion. It could sure use a makeover.
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 11, 2019 17:00:11 GMT
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Post by ghastley on Mar 11, 2019 21:34:46 GMT
If size was everything ...
I tried riding my horse from one town the next in Daggerfall, and it took longer than crossing the entire map in later games. When you "fast" travel in that game it can take a month for some journeys. And each city had more population than the later games had in total.
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Post by jgf on Mar 12, 2019 5:33:45 GMT
... many new world spaces have been created by third parties. ... it is really just a template for you to play on. ... Unfortunately this has led to creative anarchy. There is no cohesive central view of Oblivion so we end up with a game designed by a committee. Person A creates towns, NPCs, and quests for a vacant area of the map, and also tweaks class stats, character stats, weapon/armor stats, spells, etc., to his/her preference. It's a nice mod. Person B creates new towns, NPCs, quests for a different map vacancy, and also tweaks all those stats to their preference. Another nice mod. Person C does like wise for yet another empty map area. And again a nice mod. We now have mods adding towns and people and quests to three of those vast empty parts of the map, wonderful! ...except they are all mutually incompatible. Because there is no guiding view of what to do with the game, no coordination of all these efforts. The stock quests...are dumb for the most part...but are also examples for you to use to create better ones. I find them no better or worse than default Morrowind quests - primarily "go kill this person/creature" or "bring me a shrubbery" - it's just there aren't enough of them. I would love a mod that adds about a dozen quests to each Mages' Guild hall and to the University; one that adds more Fighters' Guild halls with quest strings for each, etc. (I did try Brasher's Mages Guild Quests mod, briefly. He added so many NPCs that the Bravil Guild hall looked like a bus terminal on Christmas Eve; and, like many other quest mods I've found, too many quests involved leading a small army of companions ...with no option to tell them to "wait here". Vilja and I prefer working without any tag-alongs.) But even had I any aptitude for scripting and dialog I would prefer quests from others ... then I wouldn't know what to expect. Much like a combat flight sim i enjoyed years ago; it was no fun flying missions I created, so I uploaded mine and downloaded others to play. Oddly, there are very few mods that alter Hell/Oblivion. It could sure use a makeover. Probably because it would require such major redesign to make a significant difference. I envision eliminating the separate Oblivion planes (only six or seven different maps anyway) in favor of one huge Oblivion area roughly congruent with Cyrodiil and surrounding areas; gates would open one at a time, one for each town, each about a week after the previous one is closed, you would appear in Oblivion in a spot corresponding to that gate's position in Cyrodiil, and reappear in Cyrodiil in a spot corresponding to the tower's position in Oblivion. Sigil stones would have no enchanting purpose, only used for controlling gates. Gates would "disappear" a few days after their destruction, leaving "Oblivion crystal shards" highly prized for mystical powers and as gems. (The player can eventually obtain armor/weapons/staves made from this, after finding, stealing, and buying enough of them.) There would be no houses for sale, in gratitude for destroying the gates the citizens of each town present the player with a house. The player is mentored through this new Oblivion by an ancient, learned, sorcerer, a cantankerous old Argonian (on a remote mountaintop, of course) with no interest in worldly matters, he just wants to be left alone to his research; but he recognizes the sigil stones and crystal shards, and works a deal with the player to obtain more. After the final battle in IC, he informs the player of a long lost, reusable gate to Oblivion buried deep in an abandoned mine, its lock can only be activated by a key made from crystal shard, destroyed in the process, and it is resealed when you exit; it can only be opened once a week. This leads to an ongoing series of "bring me a shrubbery" quests for artifacts/ingredients, and more crystal shards, from Oblivion.
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Post by jgf on Mar 12, 2019 5:58:52 GMT
If size was everything ... I tried riding my horse from one town the next in Daggerfall, and it took longer than crossing the entire map in later games. When you "fast" travel in that game it can take a month for some journeys. And each city had more population than the later games had in total. Never played Daggerfall, though I have it on disk somewhere; maybe it's time to unearth it. But talk of time involved reminds me of a blog i read a few years back complaining of Skyrimm (paraphrasing) "I created a character, went through a couple of dungeons and visited a small town, then i went to a larger town and talked to some NPCs. I noticed I'd been playing three hours! and this is all I'd done. I don't have time to look in every nook and cranny for loot, I don't have time to talk to every NPC for quests. I like a game I can play in twelve to fifteen hours and move on." I was appalled. Unless there is good "replayability" I'd feel cheated by a mere fifteen hours of play time. But this persons' attitude seems to be common today.
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Post by amgepo on Mar 12, 2019 9:34:04 GMT
If size was everything ... I tried riding my horse from one town the next in Daggerfall, and it took longer than crossing the entire map in later games. When you "fast" travel in that game it can take a month for some journeys. And each city had more population than the later games had in total. Never played Daggerfall, though I have it on disk somewhere; maybe it's time to unearth it. But talk of time involved reminds me of a blog i read a few years back complaining of Skyrimm (paraphrasing) "I created a character, went through a couple of dungeons and visited a small town, then i went to a larger town and talked to some NPCs. I noticed I'd been playing three hours! and this is all I'd done. I don't have time to look in every nook and cranny for loot, I don't have time to talk to every NPC for quests. I like a game I can play in twelve to fifteen hours and move on." I was appalled. Unless there is good "replayability" I'd feel cheated by a mere fifteen hours of play time. But this persons' attitude seems to be common today. Everyone has it's own prefferences and opinions, but this comment " I like a game I can play in twelve to fifteen hours and move on" is simply wrong. By definition, if the blogger moved on after playing twelve to fiftin hours, didn't like the game, may have liked it for some hours, but not anymore. Sad and expensive approach to gaming, by the way.
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Aidan
Not A Stranger Anymore
Posts: 49
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Post by Aidan on Mar 12, 2019 10:19:19 GMT
Haha OK, I see this has drawn a bit away from my original question in my absence... but that's cool, I'm always happy to provoke discussion! Personally, I too would recommend Morrowind above Oblivion - but then I'm an old hand who spent so long modding Morrowind - and playing in a modded Morrowind - that Oblivion was old when I first deigned to turn my attention to it. In fact my limited user activity on the reboot of Emma's forum is something of a testament to my declined interest since I started on Oblivion, down from when I was a vocal regular here. But I do find it enjoyable all the same. The world, though much less exotic than Vvardenfell, is beautiful and full of exciting places to explore; and though I never got far with the main quest, I really enjoyed a lot of the other things to do in the world. It has a lot more out-of-the-ordinary quests than Morrowind did. And since both I and my sister have played Morrowind to the end, inside out and back to front - it's time we give some focus to Oblivion now.
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Aidan
Not A Stranger Anymore
Posts: 49
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Post by Aidan on Mar 12, 2019 10:22:15 GMT
I might give this one a try, thanks! Neccessities of Morrowind was always a standard for me...
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