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Post by jgf on Mar 28, 2017 2:05:55 GMT
You could simply delete this Ongar then spawn a new one with placeatme. This may reset any acquired problems and possibly override/eliminate goofs installed by mods. That is, the formID object may be corrupted so a spiffy new version might fix the issue. If a mod has messed/altered up Bruma faction or Thieves Guild, or a saved game got corrupted that would fix. This seems too easy, lol. I have the ID (00035ECA), but are there any caveats to doing this? (Bethesda games are infamous for their "cancer" - do something now which manifests itself weeks later, game time, as an incurable problem ...I suspect this is what happened in my stalled game with the vanished Runar). |
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Post by Sniffles on Mar 28, 2017 9:59:51 GMT
You could simply delete this Ongar then spawn a new one with placeatme. This may reset any acquired problems and possibly override/eliminate goofs installed by mods. That is, the formID object may be corrupted so a spiffy new version might fix the issue. If a mod has messed/altered up Bruma faction or Thieves Guild, or a saved game got corrupted that would fix. This seems too easy, lol. I have the ID (00035ECA), but are there any caveats to doing this? (Bethesda games are infamous for their "cancer" - do something now which manifests itself weeks later, game time, as an incurable problem ...I suspect this is what happened in my stalled game with the vanished Runar). Simply make a special save then delete respawn. The indication that something is wrong is if he doesn't buy stuff. If he fences goods he is up to date and you should be fine. We've done this before quite a lot with non quest NPCs that nut up. The only concern is if they have flags set by the PCs actions. Non quest NPCs. Fixtures. In this characters case, a store that runs basic scripts. |
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 29, 2017 16:13:56 GMT
Copies of NPCs have a new Form ID #...probably not a good idea even if it works under certain conditions.
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Post by jgf on Mar 29, 2017 22:26:04 GMT
Copies of NPCs have a new Form ID #...probably not a good idea even if it works under certain conditions. That's the type of issue I'm wary of. Oblivion even seems to have different IDs for items before and after you take them - I killed a skeleton who then fell where i couldn't easily get to him, but I wanted his shield; opened the console, clicked on the shield and noted the ID number; tried player.additem and was told that wasn't a valid ID. (After leaving the dungeon it dawned on me I could have used tcl and "flown" down to get that shield.) |
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Post by Sniffles on Mar 30, 2017 0:07:58 GMT
Every time you start a new game you get new Ref IDs. NPCs without quests, extensive scripts, are the same as flower pots and bows except they can be triggered to perform basic functions. For a good example, at Windpeak Inn (Skyrim) we turn Karita off first thing upon entering and turn her on again upon leaving. Has had no effect on her routines.
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Post by blockhead on Mar 30, 2017 2:42:03 GMT
NPCs without quests, extensive scripts, are the same as flower pots and bows except they can be triggered to perform basic functions.  |
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 30, 2017 14:27:38 GMT
Copies of NPCs have a new Form ID #...probably not a good idea even if it works under certain conditions. That's the type of issue I'm wary of. Oblivion even seems to have different IDs for items before and after you take them - I killed a skeleton who then fell where i couldn't easily get to him, but I wanted his shield; opened the console, clicked on the shield and noted the ID number; tried player.additem and was told that wasn't a valid ID. (After leaving the dungeon it dawned on me I could have used tcl and "flown" down to get that shield.) The very first time I went through Oblivion I was unaware of TCL...talk about frustrating...lol. |
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Post by ghastley on Mar 30, 2017 16:58:31 GMT
Yes, in Oblivion, the item in your inventory is another instance of the item (same base form id, new ref id).
You can use the GetBaseObject function (I may have the name wrong, so look it up) to find out what you need in the addItem call. I.e. click on the item to make it current, use GetBaseWhatever to display the formID of that item, and addItem to give yourself another copy of the same thing.
And just a small correction to Sniffles' reply. Each time you start, you get different Ref ID's. The Form Id's are fixed, recorded in the esp's. The first byte can change with load order, but the other three don't. A RefID is created when an item is instanced, which can be placing a copy in the Construction Kit/Set or by in-game addItem requests. Clicking anything in the console gets the RefID - the one for that specific instance, not the item in general.
Form = blueprint, if that analogy helps.
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Post by Sniffles on Mar 30, 2017 22:17:22 GMT
And just a small correction to Sniffles' reply. Each time you start, you get different Ref ID's. The Form Id's are fixed, recorded in the esp's. The first byte can change with load order, but the other three don't. A RefID is created when an item is instanced, which can be placing a copy in the Construction Kit/Set or by in-game addItem requests. Clicking anything in the console gets the RefID - the one for that specific instance, not the item in general. Form = blueprint, if that analogy helps. Thanks for correcting me. I always mix those two up. Let's get the nomenclature straight. There are two FormIDs. The base and ref. "All characters in the game have two distinct FormIDs that can be used in conjunction with Console commands: a BaseID and a RefID. Most console commands will accept only one of the two types of IDs: the BaseID is generally used in cases where you want to spawn a new copy of an object, whereas the RefID is generally used in cases where you want to interact with an existing copy of an object.
Although this RefID/BaseID distinction exists for all objects in the game, it is particularly important for all of the game's unique NPCs. Most of the game scripts use RefIDs (via the associated EditorID) to control unique NPCs. This means that if you use the placeatme command to spawn a new copy (with a new RefID) of, for example, Jauffre, the new copy of Jauffre will be ignored by most of the quest scripts. Your clone may have the correct dialogues and appearance, but many quest updates triggered by Jauffre will not be triggered by your clone. He won't open the chest in Weynon Priory for you during Weynon Priory; he won't cause the Cloud Ruler Temple gates to open during Find the Heir; etc.
Therefore, when using the console with unique NPCs you should always avoid the placeatme <BaseID> command. All of this site's NPC pages provide the NPC's RefID, which should be used to locate or modify the existing copy of the NPC. For example, to move a missing NPC to your location, use:
prid <RefId>
moveto player"
So if you use the RefID to spawn a new copy of Ongar, it will be identical to the original. Since Ongar is pointed at in the Thieves Guild quest, spawning a new RefID copy then TAI on the original, you will have the exact same NPC except whatever saved game corruption is going on with Ongar will be eliminated. If the same problem occurs with the new version, some outside factor like a mod is interfering with the NPCs functions.
Either way, all console changes affect only the present load of a saved game. Reverting to a save prior to mucking about with a console eliminates all these changes.
The only time you do not want to create a spawned new object is when the object has it's own initiated quests and quest stages running as the spawned object's quests get reverted to the start and the quest may never trigger. Usually it will not trigger because that is a PC interaction that has already been assigned and considered complete. (PC quest calls NPC subquest) However, Ongar does not initiate a quest.
Note that Ongar interacts with, is involved in, two quests, Independent Thievery and Spies. Neither of these uses Ongar as anything more than a fixture like entering an Inn trigger. The Onus, the required flag of having of sold enough goods or the disposition check is the PCs scripts and quests.
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Post by jgf on Apr 1, 2017 20:13:44 GMT
...The very first time I went through Oblivion I was unaware of TCL...talk about frustrating...lol. Morrowind was rife with situations where you needed no clipping to extricate yourself from somewhere you had accidentally fallen, slid, or jumped; but I am quite leery of using it in Oblivion for fear of breaking a quest or script. For example, on one level of a cavern I had to kill an NPC to get the key to the lower level (one of those "This lock cannot be picked. You need the key." doors); I hit him with an arrow, he staggered and fell through the wall/floor to the lower level (my Detect Life spell showed him running around down there). Now there were three options: reload (I always save just before entering a dungeon); "unlock" the door via console, then kill the guy and get the key; or "tcl" to the lower level, kill him, take the key, return to the upper level, and use the key to go to the lower level. I could see either of the latter options utterly confusing the game and causing untold irritation at some future point, so reloaded. |
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