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Post by jgf on May 16, 2017 19:51:59 GMT
Have been reading up on mods to remove level scaling (to me it removes much of the mystery and excitement of exploring when I know that no matter where I go or when, everything i encounter will be scaled to my character level). But the more I read the more I question.
Once scaling is disabled, what levels are the NPCs/creatures? Do they have varying default levels, raised or lowered by the scaling but now static? does the mod meticulously assign levels? or do they remain at their level when the mod is enabled? (the latter makes no sense but never underestimate the idiocy of computers/games/mods)
Is there a mod which only removes the scaling? What I've found are "kitchen sink" mods, making numerous changes to the game, removing level scaling being just one of them; even if some of those changes are interesting, i prefer separate mods so I can use what I like. (Currently poking around an older mod in the CS to see if I can remove a couple of things I do not like.)
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Post by naramoore on May 16, 2017 20:03:07 GMT
My understanding is in reality non-scaled creatures are actually scaled only the min. and max. levels are exactly the same. The effect is that the level is hardwired into the code.
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Post by dogonporch on May 17, 2017 3:27:29 GMT
No...it's all driven by what are called leveled lists which are completely editable. These various leveled lists are attached to spawn markers on the Construction Set (CS) map that then decide what creature appears and at what level. Both the types, numbers and levels are all changeable. Plus, you can build your own unique creature spawns if you like and drop them anywhere, etc, etc.
If you have numerous mods active that affect leveled lists, the last one in the load order trumps those above. This is why it is tricky to add or even combine multiple animal/creature mods and get them to all work at once. The most effective way is to go in and re-edit all the lists yourself so that all the various critters have a chance of appearing...save as a separate esp. This isn't all that difficult...just time consuming. Wrye Bash has a feature that attempts to combine all the various lists into one with varying results. Might be the best way for those with little CS know-how.
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Post by dogonporch on May 17, 2017 3:37:03 GMT
If you'd like to try a mod that has leveling removed for the most part, you can always try my Hammerfell Wilderness. Low level PCs beware... www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/46934/?This won't affect other aspects of your Oblivion...just over in Hammerfell. |
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Post by jgf on May 18, 2017 2:13:57 GMT
Oh lord! the hours i spent tweaking leveled lists and spawn points in Morrowind. It started with a mod I tried which removed creatures from leveled lists; the argument being that having some creatures not appear til the PC was a certain level was like saying you could walk through a jungle when you are ten years old and see no dangerous animals but walk through when you are sixteen and be surrounded by them. Great idea; I built on this thinking that local guards and hunters would keep the areas immediately around settlements clear of anything dangerous, and Imperial guards would keep major roads relatively safe, but the farther from the "beaten path" you went the more likely you would encounter something dangerous. So shuffled numerous spawn points. But couldn't stop there.
Did you ever use cheap armor and weapons in Morrowind? Of course not, within a couple of days of stepping off the prison ship you found something better; so iron items were little more than scrap metal (as in Oblivion) and chitin wasn't worth lugging back to town to sell. So I laboriously edited untold numbers of lists, moved or replaced hundreds of containers, added locks, guards, etc. Now you would find nothing "good" at the start, the same numbers of the same items were still in the game, but placed where the value of the item equaled the difficulty of getting it. No more finding a silver sword in a crate sitting by a house, no more getting a set of glass armor from a guard barracks while they stand in the other room. Want that daedric shield? It's probably in a daedric ruin somewhere, a place quite lethal to anyone below about level 15 (wanted that even higher but the leveling in Morrowind is so screwy I gave up trying to do anything about it ...proved this by playing the default game - no mods other than graphics - with the lowest option in the social class - a female Argonian - and she became head of all the factions except assassins, which she didn't join, head of Telvanni, the Nerevarine, killed Vivec and Dagoth Ur ...all by level 18 ...so why have player levels go to 100). Oblivion is just as bad; I've never played beyond level 35 or so because by then I've done everything so nothing remains but repetitious revisiting of dungeons to kill newly spawned opponents (in Morrowind I extended "replayability" by only joining two factions each game; Oblivion, with a measly four factions, doesn't even offer this).
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Post by amgepo on May 18, 2017 7:35:14 GMT
In my opinion, in any TES/Fallout game, the best way to handle level scalling, is reducing both levels/skills/perks and armor/weapon material impact. Unfortunately saying is easy but doing it's really difficult or tedious, depending the path you chose.
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Post by sleepygirl on May 18, 2017 23:02:00 GMT
I use OOO, but it can be a bit all-but-the-kitchen-sink and generally fatal to brand new vanilla characters. My long-time character for OOO games is my custom made UnDead Maggot Queen who has magical regeneration offset with nerfed intelligence and agility. I guess she's a little like me in a way with this illness I live with, but without the magical re-gen 
I was always disappointed in Morrowind that chitin armour was considered to be so poor and close to being rubbish because I always liked it and my characters tended to stick with using it no matter what level they were.
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Post by dogonporch on May 18, 2017 23:36:03 GMT
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Post by jgf on May 19, 2017 1:37:08 GMT
I liked chitin also; it looked efficient, clean, and realistic ...but you outgrew it so quickly. To that end I stretched lore a bit; chitin is the casing ("skin") of insects, especially beetles, and seems to be a basic Ashlander armor. Occasionally the remains of a particularly large beetle were found, with heavier, stronger chitin; from this they fabricated "Royal Chitin" armor, meant only for tribal chiefs and the best warriors. It was slightly heavier and more durable than normal chitin, and nearly twice the armor rating; enough pieces were scattered around for two full sets (mostly in Ashlander camps, a few in dungeons and with merchants ...took a bit of exploring to find even one set); two Ashlander warriors were also wearing it, but scripted so you couldn't steal it if you killed them. Inspired by a childhood story about Brazilian beetles, I recolored this in shades of deep green and gold, when enchanted it had the iridescence of real chitin.
"...generally fatal to brand new vanilla characters"
That is exactly how I role played Morrowind and would like to play Oblivion - stay in and near town at first, hone your skills, as you progress explore farther afield, cautiously, be ready to back off if you get in over your head (level scaling negates that happening). Vilja and I are in the fourth week (game time) of my current game, and I just hit level 10; have only done a handful of quests (have a couple of dozen pending ...Vilja constantly nags me about finishing the Anvil recommendation quest) but we have explored/mapped almost all the land (unscaling/unleveling all creatures would make that much more dangerous, and interesting). Don't use fast travel, try to return home or to an inn by midnight, or sleep in a safe dungeon (seeking a mod that gives me a bedroll), walk along with an Imperial guard on the road.
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Post by jgf on May 19, 2017 2:23:33 GMT
In my opinion, in any TES/Fallout game, the best way to handle level scalling, is reducing both levels/skills/perks and armor/weapon material impact. Unfortunately saying is easy but doing it's really difficult or tedious, depending the path you chose. Definitely a lot of editing, tweaking, playing, re-editing, replaying ...and there is so little of Oblivion, compared to Morrowind, that I've yet to decide if it's worth the trouble. An interesting way to slow character leveling though is to create a custom class and invert what all advice says to do with skills - make little used skills your major skills and often used skills minor or less. In Oblivion never make athletics or agility major skills; alchemy, even if you're not a mage, levels so quickly you might not even want it as a minor skill (I've become a master alchemist at level 8 ...with a marksman character). In Morrowind, despite my best efforts to slow leveling and make it more linear, I could still accomplish everything by level 35. I felt you, or an NPC, should be at least lvl 50 to become head of anything, and the final battle with Dagoth Ur should be such that it would be foolhardy to attempt below lvl 75. My conclusion was it would take about four times as many quests, both guild and miscellaneous, and lower rewards at each level up, to actually make the 100 levels meaningful. Back then I would have tackled that, but my skill with dialog and scripting would have to vastly improve to be inept. |
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Post by amgepo on May 19, 2017 7:59:11 GMT
I indeed tend to have my most used skills as lesser skills. I think most people do that. Sadly, bethesda didn't get things right there, they get people were doing it and in Skyrim, instead of making it unneeded they make it impossible to do. "As the ventilation system in the home we design didn't work correctly, people living there are going outside a lot in order to be able to breath", "problem fixed, the door won't open from the inside, so they won't go outside"
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Post by naramoore on May 19, 2017 14:49:48 GMT
I indeed tend to have my most used skills as lesser skills. I think most people do that. Sadly, bethesda didn't get things right there, they get people were doing it and in Skyrim, instead of making it unneeded they make it impossible to do. "As the ventilation system in the home we design didn't work correctly, people living there are going outside a lot in order to be able to breath", "problem fixed, the door won't open from the inside, so they won't go outside" Real life case of this. (This is historical, I do not know the current state of affairs.) Boeing decided that their cafeteria should post menus in advance. The problem was when they served unpopular meals, people brought their own lunches or planned to eat off campus. Answer, stop posting menus. |
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Post by jgf on May 20, 2017 0:21:12 GMT
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this"
"Then don't do that"
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Post by thenryb on May 20, 2017 19:13:46 GMT
I have been rather happy with Maskar's overhaul mod. I disable many of its available features mostly because they sound more like drudgery than fun, but at least I have been able to assign as major skills those which I actually use without dealing with bandits with glass armor at level 22 and overpowered goblins (of which Oblivion has too many)which are boring and drop nothing useful. In the past, I have used OOO and Francesco's separately and as part of FCOM, but eventually abandoned all of those. I have read that Maskar's can be used along side them without difficulty.
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Post by jgf on May 21, 2017 2:13:51 GMT
I've long used "Puny Goblins", which makes them much weaker; the shamans are still dangerous, but just as easy to kill. In a cave it's fun to hit one then step back and watch Vilja go on a hack-and-slash spree through the rest.
I read about OOO and Francesco's mod, but they are classic examples of "kitchen sink" mods - they do too much, and not all of it interests me.
Not familiar with Maskar's mod, so off to read some more. Thanks.
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