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Post by amgepo on Dec 1, 2011 23:15:11 GMT
The CK will be released in january and will require steam to work. Keep in mind that january didn't necesarilly means january 1st (indeed I suppose this means they will try to release before february 1st) Read here. The part about steam being required to run it has been confirmed by Gstaff (Bethesda's comunity manager in Bethsoft forums) here , in the 14th post.
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Post by Emma on Dec 2, 2011 18:10:46 GMT
To be honest, I was kind of glad to hear the CK won't arrive before january. Once it is here, it will be very hard to stay away from it... and it's quite nice to enjoy the game first, isn't it?
Not too happy about Steam requirement, of course.
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Post by Wolf on Dec 2, 2011 20:45:52 GMT
I’ve read the thread of Gstaff over and over and I didn’t find anything concerning a requirement of Steam. But the Creation Kit will be linked to the Valve (Steam) Workshop. Just in the way of TESNexus or any other huge mod database this will collect all the submitted mods and give access for the users of the Creation Kit to work with the entire pool of the modder’s resources. So far this sounds quite comfortable and positive. On the other hand, by reading the license agreement of the Valve Workshop, you’ll see that you give the game industry full and free access to your creative work. If your work is used in a game you will be granted a fee by the grace of the game creators… how much isn’t specified yet. And with money of course, laws, jurisdiction and taxes will cut in. No more conditions like in paradise anymore. Another aspect is that the game industry has the opportunity of a very simple way of research about the behaviour and likings of the gaming community. Without wasting money for that purpose they can see which features are most popular. This is not necessarily negative for it may lead to better games… well, but only for the majority. But who knows whether we personally like what the majority goes for? I can’t tell if it’s the case with Skyrim, but I know it from Dragon Age that with the installation of the Steam account you agree to send while you are playing logfiles to the developers, that show in which way you are playing and which preferences you have… “just to make the game better” :-/ . You need quite a lot of confidence in the game developers to let them see how often you die in the game, how long you are playing, when you are playing, with which mods you are playing, which romance you prefer and so on. For my term I play in the offline mode on a computer which has no permanent connection to the internet and I’m updating only if it is really necessary. I hope this keeps a bit of privacy and a lot of data crap away. I don't need a connection to a forum while I am playing. Anyhow I like the third party forums – and especially this one here – much more than the forums of the game developers. As I have read the post of Gstaff, I think it will be only optional to submit your mods to the Valve Workshop. There will also still be the individual way to share your mods (at least I hope .
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Post by amgepo on Dec 3, 2011 2:56:00 GMT
To be honest, I was kind of glad to hear the CK won't arrive before january. Once it is here, it will be very hard to stay away from it... and it's quite nice to enjoy the game first, isn't it? Not too happy about Steam requirement, of course. Is understandable being glad with the delay in your case. My case is the contrary, I was planning to start moding from the very start this time and people is already modding with Hexadecimal editors and semicompatible fallout tools (I prefer not using those. Not very user friendly and their results are very prone to causing mayhem once installed). One of my ideas is already in development by another guy using batch files (less effort by my part, but I would like to do it myself). The worst part is the Steam requirement. Each update makes your game more dependant of it. It's like a beast that with each bite place you better for the next one. I, as many others avoided installing the steam update that makes tesv.exe also steam dependant, but once connecting to Steam to use the CK... I’ve read the thread of Gstaff over and over and I didn’t find anything concerning a requirement of Steam. But the Creation Kit will be linked to the Valve (Steam) Workshop. Just in the way of TESNexus or any other huge mod database this will collect all the submitted mods and give access for the users of the Creation Kit to work with the entire pool of the modder’s resources. So far this sounds quite comfortable and positive. On the other hand, by reading the license agreement of the Valve Workshop, you’ll see that you give the game industry full and free access to your creative work. If your work is used in a game you will be granted a fee by the grace of the game creators… how much isn’t specified yet. And with money of course, laws, jurisdiction and taxes will cut in. No more conditions like in paradise anymore. Another aspect is that the game industry has the opportunity of a very simple way of research about the behaviour and likings of the gaming community. Without wasting money for that purpose they can see which features are most popular. This is not necessarily negative for it may lead to better games… well, but only for the majority. But who knows whether we personally like what the majority goes for? I can’t tell if it’s the case with Skyrim, but I know it from Dragon Age that with the installation of the Steam account you agree to send while you are playing logfiles to the developers, that show in which way you are playing and which preferences you have… “just to make the game better” :-/ . You need quite a lot of confidence in the game developers to let them see how often you die in the game, how long you are playing, when you are playing, with which mods you are playing, which romance you prefer and so on. For my term I play in the offline mode on a computer which has no permanent connection to the internet and I’m updating only if it is really necessary. I hope this keeps a bit of privacy and a lot of data crap away. I don't need a connection to a forum while I am playing. Anyhow I like the third party forums – and especially this one here – much more than the forums of the game developers. As I have read the post of Gstaff, I think it will be only optional to submit your mods to the Valve Workshop. There will also still be the individual way to share your mods (at least I hope . Gstaff didn't mention the steam dependency in his thread, but in the other one I linked in my previous post, after one guy asked. It's the 14th post in that thread. The skyrim steam dependency didn't make much sense until now. My theory is that they want to show Microsoft (I would say "and Sony", but they have eyes only for the 360 market), that you can have mods contents under control without problem, putting us as an example (maybe they are also planning to release packs of PC mods as console DLCs but this looks less probable). As Skyrim is already Steam dependant, the CK dependency is not supposed to upset us so much. This would also explain, why PC the version has no dx11 functionalities, an alternate 64 bits executable, a code optimised for a modern PC or an user interface more oriented to the use of the mouse and the keyboard. they want most of the mods being of the type an XBOX could use (not great overhauls, or fancy graphics that right now PC version can't handle with constant CDTs), in order to make a more convincing argument for the use of mods on 360, when they talk with Mycrosoft about this. Nothing against making console mods possible, or porting PC mods for consoles, but the part where they screw us, second hand market and downloading sites in the process is less appealing. Of course, this is only my theory. I doubt they will force you to upload the mods in the workshop before uploading to others sites. I think they will rely on the offer of possible payments and the fact that surely you will have the option to upload your mods there directly from the CK. Following my theory, I can foresee two scenarios for the next TES game: -First one, as they already used PC gaming community for this experiment, they won't need us and will at last be able to get rid of us (much problems, few people). TES 6 won't be available for PC. -Second one, as they already used PC gaming community for this experiment, they won't need to screw us more. Next titles will use all the potential of the next PCs. I see more probable the second case, as apparently PC sales has been incredibly high (no possibility to know the numbers, as Steam didn't show their sales, but Skyrim has been the game with more people playing it the same day in the history of Steam, which may mean that PC sales have surpassed even the XBOX ones).
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Post by Wolf on Dec 3, 2011 6:42:34 GMT
The worst part is the Steam requirement. Each update makes your game more dependant of it. It's like a beast that with each bite place you better for the next one. That's a nice comparison, Amgepo! I like it. But it sounds as if they want to harm us in anyway. I think it's ambivalent. There are surely many common users who profit from the comfort of the automatic updates and DLCs and the easy way of sharing their game experience. (Oh, I know you hate automisation and I do either up to a certain degree). The industry on the other side has the opportunity of the free market survey. You said it so fitting: experimenting with us. Gstaff didn't mention the steam dependency in his thread, but in the other one I linked in my previous post, after one guy asked. It's the 14th post in that thread. Yes, I've read that, but the answer sounded just assuming to me. And I think there is no real sense to link to steam whenever the CK is started. The modding community will know where to get their updates and third party tools and why should the industry survey the, compared to the common users, small number of modders who will voluntarily upload at Valve Workshop? After all we don't know for sure what will be. But it is really worth discussing, even now. It's most interesting what you said, Amgepo. Why not open a new thread for the Creation Kit although it's not out yet? I'm sure there will be requirements in the future.
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Post by Emma on Dec 3, 2011 10:20:20 GMT
When Gstaff posted at the ESboards about a CK-release in January, the Skyrim-discussion in the TES5 - Skyrim-thread rapidly turned into a CK discussion. It's probably better we have that discussion in a separate thread, so I move the posts to this new thread. (And I have no idea why the order of the posts is changed ) Quote Amgepo: I wonder how Bethesda feels about the community using alternate tools? Did they foresee this, or did it come as a surprise? And has it made them decide to release the CK earlier than what they had intended? I wonder how far using semicompatible tools can be taken? What if modders can work out utilities so that Skyrim can be modded with Fallout CS instead, without any connection to Steam? What would be the response from the devs to that? For now, I don't want to mess around with semicompatible tools. Just like you say, Amgepo, we don't know what kind of mayhem this will cause, especially with new updates of Skyrim itself. I can understand how you feel about not being able to mod properly on the project you'd like to do, Amgepo. But I'm sure your decision to wait is a wise one. Modding for Skyrim shouldn't be a race, it should be about quality, not about speed. Although also I get affected by the stress when I see how people are already modding (and posting tons about the ground-breaking companion mods they are working on). If they want to show Microsoft how easy it is to have mods contents under control, I again have to wonder how the devs feel about the alternate modding tools showing up. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to technical aspects, but wouldn't it be quite natural that if using Skyrim is dependant on Steam, so is the CK? I was thinking we would have to expect a change already when I heard that CS was renamed to CK; why rename the tool if there isn't a different in how it is supposed to be used? I read somewhere, recently, that the PC-version of Skyrim is only 14 % of the total sales for the game. So, we are a minority .
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Post by amgepo on Dec 3, 2011 19:36:46 GMT
That's a nice comparison, Amgepo! I like it. But it sounds as if they want to harm us in anyway. I think it's ambivalent. There are surely many common users who profit from the comfort of the automatic updates and DLCs and the easy way of sharing their game experience. (Oh, I know you hate automisation and I do either up to a certain degree). The industry on the other side has the opportunity of the free market survey. You said it so fitting: experimenting with us. They don't want to harm us of course . They have nothing against us for starting (neither do have a fox anything against a rabbit ), it's simply that their interest and ours didn't fit 100%. We will benefit from their efforts in areas of common interest, like the game being a good experience (we want to enjoy the game and they want us to enjoy the game). People have an astonishing tendency to choose the "official" or the leader in the market option, you can find a lot of examples of product and services where people choose mainly the most extended one, despite other options being known to be better. I think most new moders will upload in the workshop, while the old ones will do at Nexus. I wonder how Bethesda feels about the community using alternate tools? Did they foresee this, or did it come as a surprise? And has it made them decide to release the CK earlier than what they had intended? I wonder how far using semicompatible tools can be taken? What if modders can work out utilities so that Skyrim can be modded with Fallout CS instead, without any connection to Steam? What would be the response from the devs to that? For now, I don't want to mess around with semicompatible tools. Just like you say, Amgepo, we don't know what kind of mayhem this will cause, especially with new updates of Skyrim itself. I can understand how you feel about not being able to mod properly on the project you'd like to do, Amgepo. But I'm sure your decision to wait is a wise one. Modding for Skyrim shouldn't be a race, it should be about quality, not about speed. Although also I get affected by the stress when I see how people are already modding (and posting tons about the ground-breaking companion mods they are working on). I think they assumed CS has been the central tool to each and every project in Oblivion. Not sure if they have calculated to what extent people have been using tools like Tes4Edit not always as a help but as an alternative to CS in the past. I think they initial releasing date was the same as the first DLC for PC version, but seeing the overwhelming proliferation of mods they decide to release CK earlier. Before someone decode the new esm/esp format and release a tool making the CK unnecessary (quite improbable, but if they really need us to use the CK they can't take risks). after the CK release, things will change. there are tools like Tes4edit that can do almost all the CS can do and nobody has had ever any personal reason for not using the CS. This time surely they will be complete alternatives to the CK. About Bethesda reaction? a ton of updates making esm/esp formats incompatible between different versions. Obsidian did it already with one of the updates in New Vegas (by accident I think), changing the ID number of various objects. I think they will feel only mildly annoyed about alternate tools. But there is where the workshop will shine the most. They will be showing Microsoft the content of the workshop, not the one of sites like the Nexus. The fact that Bethesda's interest and ours didn't fit 100% didn't mean their interest and Microsoft ones does fit 100% either . Skyrim and the CK are different programs, the requirement of steam in one of them didn't suppose the same for the other one. New Vegas was steam dependant and it's editor wasn't. About the name change, they already changed the CS name in the case of fallout to G.E.C.K, in reference to a fictional object appearing in fallout 2. That was counting only physical sales (the only ones in the case of consoles). Steam never releases their sales data. Considering the amount of people loving steam with all their soul and the fact that buying the physical copy won't save you from using steam, it's easy to assume the number of Steam sales are way greater than the physical ones. Then, there is the fact that Skyrim had had more people playing in steam the same day than any other videogame earlier. For the first it's easy to assume we are at least a 25% and for the second it's obvious that the percentage is way greater.
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Post by Wolf on Dec 3, 2011 20:24:48 GMT
Edit: Sorry, Amgepo, my post crossed yours. TES4Edit is of course no substitute for the CS although it has additional features. I read somewhere, recently, that the PC-version of Skyrim is only 14 % of the total sales for the game. So, we are a minority . 14 %?! Thats more than in other games. But this shows that we computer gamers are an endangered species, on the edge of extinction, because we are taking the hard way . (Edit: I looked up some numbers of another new game and there it is 5 million and 4 millions for consoles and 400 000 for PC) Although your fingers may be itching to do anything creative (because "playing construction set" is just as much fun as playing the game) the Creation Kit and the game must be from the same forge to work together as it should be and as it is necessary for quality and reliability of such a complex mod as a companion mod. And of course you must know the game by heart first. It seems there is a possibility to edit some specifics, as the ID-numbers are out, with the Fallout 3 CS. But I would never rely on that. And there are ways to ship around the steam requirement, but they are of course illegal. It's no problem to extract the Skyrim archives in the Fallout 3 Archive Utility: www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=34So retexturing is possible to full extent. For NifSkope there exists a new .xml file plugin but the meshes show defects and lack links to the textures. There is no working plugin for Blender or else so you have to export the meshes as wavefront.obj, mend them and assign UVs and textures. Quite a work. I tried several mods, but I found non of them I would keep. I just made a little bit cleaner texture with higher resolution to create more sympathatic female faces. That's it. Your comments on the different .ini settings, Amgepo, were of much more worth as the existing mods, which sometimes even make things worse. For now I see no other way than to sit back comfortably, the amulet of Vilja's mother around the neck, waiting for this ominous Creation Kit to be released, enjoying and learning the game and absorbing the atmosphere of this new world. Emma, don't get yourself under pressure. Rome wasn't built in one day and Vilja wasn't created two months after the release of Oblivion . You will have your time. All the Elder Scroll games have been made with such dedication and love for details that it seems to me it is not exclusively all financial interest behind this piece of artwork. So I can't believe they have the intention to "screw us up". Hmm... I hope so.
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Post by Emma on Dec 3, 2011 21:15:40 GMT
There are two cathegories of developers - the "real" developers, like Todd Howard & friends, who are literally creating the game, who are doing an amazing job and who I trust want the very best for their game and for the continuing Elder Scrolls. And then there are the people who pay their salary; the guys-with-the-money, i.e. the financial developers, who might have other main interests than the game quality.
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Post by Neko on Dec 3, 2011 22:22:59 GMT
I'm actually quite pleased that they're intending to make an "official" repository for mods, and integrate a tool to automatically download and update those mods into the CK. I hate trawling random websites for mods, each one requiring sign up, with download links packed with adverts. I hate that there's no "standard" way of packing up mods into a bundle; some people include the Data dir in the archive, some use it as the root, everyone uses "readme.txt" so it conflicts with everyone else's readme, and so on.
What I don't like is the "Agreement" you get when installing Skyrim which applies to the future CK and mods made using it; I think there could be many cases where you can't just assign ownership to a third party like that (using someone else's meshes and textures as part of your mod, etc), and it probably conflicts with some licences people might prefer to use (e.g. Creative Commons, but I Am Not A Lawyer).
(Edit: I was mistaken in my earlier reading of the dense legalese; the Skyrim EULA doesn't specifically say anything about ownership of your mods, only the SDK.)
That said, I understand that their legal department probably got them to add those conditions because otherwise they could get into more legal trouble by the act of hosting others' mods. Hurray for the legal system. I don't think this is a case of malice on Bethsoft's part, just their lawyers doing what lawyers do best to ensure the world needs lawyers.
As for Steam requirements... well, I'm not too fussed as Steam strikes me as the least-crappy form of content control. I bought Skyrim in disc form*, but I'm happy I don't need to download a crack or anything like that just to play without the DVD in.
-Neko
* - Because the publisher decided to use regional pricing and I live in Australia. Fetchers.
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Post by amgepo on Dec 4, 2011 3:11:48 GMT
I found some interesting things in game, related to player/NPC interactions included in "Companion Vilja" -If a NPC start speaking when you are looking in another direction, this time the lips end moving when the topic ends. -You are considered nude, despite wearing jewelry. Didn't research much here. Maybe it's decided, by you not wearing clothes (or valued clothes) in the torso. -Followers make comments on the type of enemies you find. Indeed NPCs can even comment on you having a fire spell equipped. -I suppose all of you have by now discovered the topic "I want you to do something for me" (or something like that). With this topic, you can make your followers interact with the world in a very easy and intuitive way (use chairs, beds, take books, pick locks, go to a given spot...). The only flaw I see here, is that while you have the command active, you can't interact with objects yourself and the moment you cancel it (tab key or activate the follower), the follower stops doing what it was doing. -When a NPC is in your way, it usually take a while until they decide to step aside. As I read in Bethsoft forums, there are players that aren't even aware that the NPCs does eventually step aside -they are really pissed off-. This is a feature that could annoy many players using a companion. Not sure if each companion sensitivity can be adjusted. If not, it's needed to fix this one way or another (making them pushable like in Oblivion, make them maintain a minimum distance from you...) So I can't believe they have the intention to "screw us up". Hmm... I hope so. It's absolutely impossible they want to screw us. If they end up screwing us, it would be for profit, not with the intention of ruining our day . The thing here, is that while every person making decisions in Bethesda may (and surely do) want the best for us, each of them make decisions based on what Zenimax expects from them. There are two cathegories of developers - the "real" developers, like Todd Howard & friends, who are literally creating the game, who are doing an amazing job and who I trust want the very best for their game and for the continuing Elder Scrolls. And then there are the people who pay their salary; the guys-with-the-money, i.e. the financial developers, who might have other main interests than the game quality. I agree in this, though the line between one group and the other, is quite thin. Not sure where Todd Howard is in this shorting. I'm actually quite pleased that they're intending to make an "official" repository for mods, and integrate a tool to automatically download and update those mods into the CK. I hate trawling random websites for mods, each one requiring sign up, with download links packed with adverts. I hate that there's no "standard" way of packing up mods into a bundle; some people include the Data dir in the archive, some use it as the root, everyone uses "readme.txt" so it conflicts with everyone else's readme, and so on. With Morrowind there were a lot of sites, though there were a few that almost have all the mods. With Oblivion, TesNexus was almost the site for mods. In the case of Skyrim, SkyrimNexus is already consolidated as the site. With the inclusion of the new workbench, there will be two main sites instead of one. It's true that you are already registered in Steam, but the same could apply in the case of The Nexus. I see no advantages here. Instead of checking one site already full of mods (SkyrimNexus), you need to check two. I'm not a lawyer either, but must say that I can't see the difference between them owning your intellectual property in a mod, or in a graphic resource made by yourself, while you make this kind of agreement by using the product thingy. I suppose you won't be able to upload in the workbench any material owning to a third entity (like it happens in The Nexus) and materials owning by yourself will change the ownage the moment you upload them (I suppose). These kinds of things tend to increase in crappyness. Each harshness opens the door for the next one. Now you don't need the DVD inserted but you need to have you internet connection ready, should steam want to greet you.
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Post by loriel on Dec 4, 2011 9:11:29 GMT
What I don't like is the "Agreement" you get when installing Skyrim which applies to the future CK and mods made using it; I think there could be many cases where you can't just assign ownership to a third party like that (using someone else's meshes and textures as part of your mod, etc), and it probably conflicts with some licences people might prefer to use (e.g. Creative Commons, but I Am Not A Lawyer). What "Agreement" are you referring to? As I recall, previous versions of the CS included terms which grant Bethesda a license to use any mod that you make with it. Whilst I don't approve of such terms, I didn't find them particularly onerous. I agree that it shouldn't expect you to assign ownership (which as I recall has to be done in writing, and can't be done by a minor), and I don't think that can be done in EULA-style terms. This, together with part of Wolf's earlier post "Just in the way of TESNexus or any other huge mod database this will collect all the submitted mods and give access for the users of the Creation Kit to work with the entire pool of the modder’s resources." sounds as if it goes beyond the earlier permission to Bethesda to use the mod, by granting permission to others to reuse any content of your mod in theirs. From memory, the earlier CS terms allowed Bethesda to grant permission to others to re-use your mods, but as far as I know this wasn't ever done (though perhaps the "official" mods for MW fell into this category). Whilst it is convenient to be able to reuse content made by others without asking their permission, it may be unacceptable to modders to see their own content reused in ways that offend them, or without any acknowledgement. Not having a copy of Skyrim, or having read the actual proposed terms for the CK, I may be jumping to the wrong conclusion here, but these sound like significant changes to me. Having a centralised repository and standardised terms sounds good in many ways, but this also has its potential problems - for example how much will this centralised repository monitor the content and remove offending items (both "too little" and "too much" would be problems). An interesting comparison is with the infamous GPL - anybody is free to modify code distributed under that licence, but such modified code must also be free for others to modify if that modified code is distributed. From what I recall, the terms for Bethesda's earlier CS gives Bethesda a licence to use any mods produced with the CS, even if they are not distributed - thus it is more "intrusive" than the GPL, even in the earlier version, and the comments in this thread suggest that the proposed version is significantly "stronger" (in Bethesda's favour). Loriel
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Post by Neko on Dec 5, 2011 4:54:12 GMT
With Morrowind there were a lot of sites, though there were a few that almost have all the mods. With Oblivion, TesNexus was almost the site for mods. In the case of Skyrim, SkyrimNexus is already consolidated as the site. With the inclusion of the new workbench, there will be two main sites instead of one. It's true that you are already registered in Steam, but the same could apply in the case of The Nexus. I see no advantages here. Instead of checking one site already full of mods (SkyrimNexus), you need to check two. For me, it's a big advantage. I love using Synaptic or the Ubuntu Software Centre to install software; "this one, this one, this one - Go!". I hate installing software on my Windows machine, because I have to go through the tedium of finding, downloading, and installing the things myself. The workbench sounds similarly convenient. These kinds of things tend to increase in crappyness. Each harshness opens the door for the next one. Now you don't need the DVD inserted but you need to have you internet connection ready, should steam want to greet you. For me, Steam is much better than DVD checks. I have internet, and I could easily set it to start in Offline mode if I needed to. If I were on dial-up in a little cottage somewhere in the Swedish countryside, I'd connect once to authenticate, enable offline mode and be done with it. No sweat =) Some publishers like Ubisoft include their own always-online checks, so I don't buy anything from Ubisoft. Others like EA have started their own Steam rival, but Origin and EA customer support have many black marks against their names and I won't have anything to do with them either. You've got to approach it case-by-case and reward the good guys, in my opinion. What "Agreement" are you referring to? The EULA in the Skyrim installer. As well as covering the game, it also adds clauses relating to use of an as-yet-unreleased Creation Kit. As I have dug up the relevant text in order to quote it here for you, I have realised that I was mistaken with my earlier post: There doesn't appear to be any clause regarding your ownership of your mods*. I misread it, which is easy to do with legalese. Here's the part for the Australia and New Zealand part of the Skyrim licence that tripped me up (with a bit of formatting added because it sorely needs it):- -Neko * - unless I was mistaken about being mistaken.
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Post by loriel on Dec 5, 2011 7:50:05 GMT
Thanks for posting the relevant part of the EULA, Neko.
A few comments: 1) The enforceability of EULAs is still unclear, as far as I know, and the initial catchall phrase "to the extent permitted by the applicable laws" makes it even less clear what it actually means, and how effective it would be if challenged. 2) I don't recall Bethesda using the phrase "level editor" or the abbreviation "SDK" (which presumably stands for "Software Development Kit") before, and don't find them very suitable here, which suggests it might be a bit of legalistic boilerplate copied from elsewhere (which brings its own question of whether this is copied in breach of copyright...) 3) I dislike the wording of part of section (iv) - "your Modifications must not contain ... any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties". This does not seem to allow the inclusion of other people's work in your mod, even with their permission - unless you use the interpretation that giving permission removes the copyright-protection (which I don't agree with). Alternatively perhaps if permission is given for re-use, the author of that work is no longer regarded as a third party, but I find this a rather unsatisfactory ruse. I know what they intended (or I hope I do), and I agree with those intentions, but I find their wording sloppy and potentially unhelpful and misleading. I would have preferred something like "your Modifications must not contain ... any trademarks, copyright-protected work or other property of third parties, unless used with permission of the relevant owner".
Loriel
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Post by Wolf on Dec 5, 2011 16:36:19 GMT
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