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Post by loriel on Dec 5, 2011 17:38:31 GMT
Thanks for that information, Wolf. If I interpret it correctly (and not being a Skyrim player I've not seen any discussion of it elsewhere, so perhaps I am overlooking something), it functions something like this: Emma writes "Vilja in Skyrim" in due course, and distributes it via this Valve system instead of TesNexus Valve realises how valuable it is, and sells it at say 5 US dollars per time Every month (or whatever frequency Valve may change to), Valve deducts its costs (whatever they may be) and if there is any surplus left, retains 75% for itself and distributes 25% to Emma (after waiting for another month, or whatever period Valve decides...) If there is any dispute about this agreement, normally it would be resolved by legal action in Washington USA, but because Emma resides in the EU, the method of resolution is left unclear - maybe it's in Washington, maybe somewhere else... And it appears to be in breach of the terms of the CK EULA which neko posted earlier, specifying: "(v) your Modifications must be distributed solely for free. Neither you nor any other person or party may sell them to anyone, commercially exploit them in any way, or charge anyone for using them without a license from the OWNER. OWNER encourages non-commercial distribution of quality Modifications; " Looks like Bethesda is "OWNER" in the CK EULA, and the Valve terms imply that Bethesda has granted such a licence to Valve. Perhaps this is just a logical extension of the DLC from Oblivion, but it will be interesting to see how many "commercial" mods for Skyrim are released in this way, and how successful they are. Loriel |
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Post by ghastley on Dec 5, 2011 19:17:47 GMT
Interestingly, it appears not to prevent anyone from competing with Valve by providing the same mod for free on another site (e.g. SkyrimNexus)
It remains to be seen if they can prevent anyone from knowing that a mod is freely available elsewhere.
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Post by amgepo on Dec 5, 2011 22:25:16 GMT
Let's hope valve didn't decide to change the terms in a more favorable way for themselves.
EDIT:This part is really concerning:
They can take your mod, modify as they please and then identify you as the author of the modified version?!?!
Like "little sheila and her happy friends, by Jonny modmaker" -> "skimpy sheila and her naughty friends, by Jonny modmaker". It's not like I think they would posibly make a pornographic version of mods (though they can), but they can make other changes people could consider equally offensive (politics, religion...) and then put your name on it.
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Post by Emma on Dec 5, 2011 23:55:59 GMT
This whole thing is getting quite scary, isn't it?  Modding so far has been a labour of love, now we are talking money and ownership. I have a very bad feeling about this. |
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Post by Neko on Dec 7, 2011 19:38:24 GMT
I suspect if they get too heavy-handed and draconian about managing the community mods, we'll just ignore their system and upload to skyrim nexus etc. as we've always done.
And again, I Am Not A Lawyer but as I understand it, EULAs are on very dodgy legal ground as it is. A legal "Agreement" is supposed to be a contract between two parties that either one of them can negotiate the terms of. EULAs and clickwrap and "I Agree" buttons are all entirely one-sided, and shouldn't hold up in a court. However they've become increasingly prevalent in our society.
You know, I once had an idea for a mod that I never got round to making: An evil wizard called Youllar, who "throws" spells at you in the form of scrolls modded to be a light thrown weapon. When they hit the player, a book UI opens with some obscure legal text in them =P
"You, heretofore referred to as the PLAYER, acknowledge the application of Youllar the Wizard's (heretofore referred to as the CASTER) magic, and after reading many run-on sentences and obscure legal jargon, do, as the PLAYER, relinquish any inherent resistance to magic cast by the CASTER and accept a paralysis effect lasting no more than sixty (60) seconds."
-Neko
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Post by Wolf on Dec 7, 2011 20:48:49 GMT
Absolutely great, Neko! Brilliant idea and actually so realistic in all it's irony! So you can imagine how hard it is for us non-English folks to understand such obscure legal jargon. You should really invent a game with different races for example lawyers, attorneys and barristers, fighting against each other, casting scrolls and paragraphs. And than the looser has to try to get out of jail with only one chance of pleading to keep him from bleeding.  Loriel, thank you for your interpretation, that makes it much easier to understand. |
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Post by golddragon on Dec 7, 2011 23:05:03 GMT
Gives a whole new meaning to "Throw the book at someone"! I LIKE! ;D
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Post by jackowords on Dec 10, 2011 18:17:58 GMT
Hard to say, over the long term, if selling mods will be a good thing or a bad thing for Elder Scrolls modding. One thing is for sure, though- if you thought feedback on mods was insensitive before, wait until the players have a monetary investment in them... |
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Post by amgepo on Dec 11, 2011 6:57:17 GMT
I don't see many chances of steam actually selling mods. Charging for mods would decrease downloads and with that the money they expect to gain advertising other products. Usually selling mods would be more profitable than the advertising increase for giving them for free, but they can't charge much, as there will be free mods anyway and if they shell mods they will only see 75% of the product (surely not so much as they may need to give Bethesda a part), while the money they gain from advertising their products is 100% for them. Then there is the fact that Steam is optional for many games and they surely won't want to be portrayed as the site charging for mods. Surely they preffer having positive publicity, in order to obtain willing customers while they have that annoying need  . Again, if the inclusion of money in the equation is a Bethesda move for taming the modding community, in order to convince Microsoft to let them include modding for Xbox, the profit factor stays out of all possible consideration. About the posible effect of this factor, I think it would be davastating. Think of all mods that you downloaded only because they where promising. Thing of that times where you downloaded the first mod of someone, only to point out the flaws, give the author ideas and encouraging him/her to continue modding and now imagine you should need to pay to download those mods. Think on updates. Imagine all authors that update their mods regularly and correct any posible flaw with a new update. Suddenly they would become suspects of milking the people downloading their mods. Think on competition. Did you see any author making a mod uncompatible with another one wantomlly, or spreading false rumours about other mods causing bloatting or game corruption. No? well, it's because there is not money on the table. And then there is the people releasing resources like meshes and textures for other modders. They won't be making the same profit peple using their resources for their own mod will make. Will they continue supporting other modders? I see a community were people work together, help each other and everybody is fond of the rest. And then someone put the money on the table and with it the distrust starts raising exponentially, ruining all. Sure, there is the chance of making cash. But if you take away the fun and the will to share, you can invest the same time in more profitable activities. |
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Post by loriel on Dec 11, 2011 22:31:09 GMT
There's an interesting post at www.thexuniverse.com/threads/22570-X3-Albion-Prelude?p=207956&viewfull=1#post207956 - this refers to the forthcoming X-Rebirth, which is the forthcoming episode in the X-Universe saga, roughly the equivalent to Skyrim. I don't know how reliable his forecasts are, and it's dangerous to take the similarity between the Elder Scrolls and X Universes too far, but his theory is that there will be a substantial move towards commercial mods. In the X-Universe, "Updates" have always been free and have contained a combination of bug-fixes and new material, whereas Elder Scrolls, at least in recent times, have already separated bug-fixes, which are free, from extra content, which is paid-for. The immediate subject of his post, X3-Albion Prelude, is a sort of unexpected intermediary between the last release (X3:Terran Conflict, equivalent to Oblivion) and the next (x_Rebirth, equivalent to Skyrim). He sees it as a "trial" to assess the feasibility of the commercial mod intentions for the next release. He is also a player (and probably a modder) in the Elder Scrolls Universe, so his views may be of interest. Loriel |
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nakiarogue
Just Arrived
A friendly rogue.
Posts: 20
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Post by nakiarogue on Jan 15, 2012 8:58:23 GMT
With any game that I have played that has an editor there are terms of usage and restrictions. The original game and its resources belong to the developers/publishers and it is by their largess that people are able to produce mods. The Creation Kit belongs to Bethesda Softworks and it is their choice as to who can use it.
At first I was leery of the use of Valve's Workshop for the uploading and downloading of mods but after research and discussion I think it is a good idea. It is very easy to download from CURSE. It provides a central area for users to come to instead of searching for hours for a mod which I have done or even had to ask help from others.
It will actually protect modders from those who love to go around bashing other peoples work. It will make it difficult for people to steal work, not impossible but at least Valve and Bethesda will be able to keep track of who uploads and who downloads.
I understand that modders will be able to upload to other sites.
I believe this is a positive step that will benefit both modders and users.
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Post by wotan on Jan 17, 2012 16:19:10 GMT
I'm sure many modders will show skepsis in the beginning. The system is definitely convenient. It's all this legal mumbo jumbo that scares people.
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Post by Jac on Jan 19, 2012 18:12:56 GMT
The CK is currently in beta, but it doesn't work. One of the beta testers couldn't even get the Skyrim master file to load without it crashing within two minutes. I wouldn't expect it to be released until closer to the end of the month if not the beginning of next month.
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Post by blockhead on Jan 27, 2012 23:18:00 GMT
In beta? Like they're making it from scratch? One wonders why they don't just give up and release the actual program they used to make the already-released game? |
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Post by amgepo on Jan 28, 2012 3:41:15 GMT
In beta? Like they're making it from scratch? One wonders why they don't just give up and release the actual program they used to make the already-released game? Because it's attached to some licensed software AND because it wouldn't force us to use Steam Workshop. The feature without which they don't want us to use the CK. At this point, I don't want to use the CK at all. I can do all I want with custom made tools (made by others) with great time and effort. Time and effort which are smaller as I take more and more practice using them. Some days after the release of the CK, the tools I'm using will be improved to the point of surpassing the CK in their respective areas. And new tools will be created. The question is. Will I limit myself to inferior tools between the release of the CK and the updating of the tools I use, only because I am really mad at them and I refuse to ask about the height when they ask me to jump? I don't know. It's not a question of principles but pride. But they really pulled the string too much this time. |
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