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Post by plenty250 on May 5, 2013 8:01:44 GMT
Being from Canada we are taught Spelling and Grammar following the English standard however unless they are published here the majority of the books and magazines use the American inferiority ;D It seems quite odd and impractical to be taught one standard and in practice to be often confronted with the other. It's the same thing internationally I suppose, in Holland I was taught "English" English (to be pronounced as RP of course, or "BBC English" as they used to call it sometimes) and that's probably true the world over, outside of the US. So what spelling to you use in practice? It's weird that in ES it's a mixed bag, but that must be because of writers from different countries simply using the spelling they're used to, without any editing to standardize it. Considering this, I guess it's for the writer (of a mod as well) to decide what spelling to use. As for the names for groups of animals, it can get silly very quickly. I doubt that most people know which ones to use for all animals, not in their native language and certainly not in a foreign language. Herd, pack and flock are common enough (although I associate flock mostly with birds just like Wotan did, despite what the formal definition of it may be) but a parade of elephants, or a shrewdness of apes? Only experts would know those, I imagine. But of course it's perfectly possible to herd a flock of sheep. ;D
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Post by wotan on May 5, 2013 9:45:45 GMT
I've heard parade used about elephants before. It does sound way to organized for the in-game situation to be used though. A herd or a flock sounds much better. In retrospect, a flock sounds even more chaotic and noisy than a herd -- you know what, I'm going to change it back to Emma's original line in my fan-fic -- I think it just sounds better for the situation.
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Post by epimetheus on May 6, 2013 0:20:12 GMT
Of course, one of my favorites has been left out - a Murder of Crows. Don't you love the vagaries of the English language? Sorry but you are way off base here wotan and 100% in the wrong. You specifically accused Emma of a grammatical error where there was none. Even loriel noticed your error. That is two people trying to help you realize your mistake. Flock and herd are interchangeable. They are both "Educated" ways of describing an assemblage of animals. They mean the same thing. They are synonyms. The word "herd" is used for any group of animals and so is the word flock used to describe ANY group of animals. All you have to do wotan is look up the word in a dictionary. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brilliant?ref=dictionary&word=flock#An assemblage of Elephants can be called a "Parade" or a "Memory" but herd, flock, drove, pack, gang and brood are very acceptable as well. This is easily proven by looking up the words in a Thesaurus. thesaurus.com/browse/herdIf you read the list wotan you would have realized that I did not leave out Canine animals (dogs, wolves). It is listed not once but... TWICE!!! What I did leave out was; A group of Hippopotamus' are called a crash; A group of Zebras are called a zeal; A group of Bacteria are called a colony; A group of Giraffe are called a tower. Using the word "Flock" to describe a group of animals is a very "educated" because you are creatively using a synonym that shows off a complete meaning of the word. It is similar to the word "Brilliant", which means shining brightly; sparkling; glittering; lustrous: but it is also acceptable to use the word to describe mental keenness or alertness; ie. "She gave a brilliant performance." or "She has a brilliant mind."
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Post by blockhead on May 6, 2013 2:19:36 GMT
I once had a music teacher say that English can be a difficult language because there are so many ways of saying the same thing. He then pointed out that this made it very good for songwriters.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 6:00:54 GMT
Of course, one of my favorites has been left out - a Murder of Crows. Nope It was listed. murder, a flock of crows; Being from Canada we are taught Spelling and Grammar following the English standard however unless they are published here the majority of the books and magazines use the American inferiority ;D It seems quite odd and impractical to be taught one standard and in practice to be often confronted with the other. Nope. Not really. You are thinking about it as an adult and have not considered that when people are taught grammar and spelling they are children and don't know anything else. At that early age all the school books are following the British standard of the English language. So children are too young to even know about the difference and by the time they become aware that there is a difference most are too old to care ;D The term "British English" is sometimes used as a synonym for "Commonwealth English"; that is, English as spoken and written in the Commonwealth of Nations. Written English as used in the Commonwealth generally favours British as opposed to American spelling. One of the obvious differences between British and American standards is that the CE standard usually has a "u" following an "o"; "our", - "or"; In British English (e.g. colour, flavour, harbour, honour, humour, labour, neighbour, rumour) end in -or in American English (color, flavor, harbor, honor, humor, labor, neighbor, rumor). Another obvious difference is -ogue (CE), -og (USA); British and Commonwealth English uses the ending -logue and -gogue while American English usually uses the ending -log and -gog for words like analog(ue), catalog(ue), dialog(ue), demagog(ue), pedagog(ue), monolog(ue), homolog(ue), synagog(ue), etc There are many other differences that I can't remember and don't know of but I do know that there are slight variations from country to country within the Commonwealth; ie. Here in Canada we are influenced by French, Irish and Scottish grammar whereas Caribbean and other countries within the Commonwealth will have a heavier influence of Latin or Greek. I don't think the effort in changing it would be justified - changing the text in the file (often multiple occurences), re-recording that sentence, re-packaging the files, etc. Also I do rather like the word-play there: mammoth -> woolly -> sheep -> flock. Loriel Dare I say that it would have been a crime against " English Literature" if you would have changed it loriel. ;D Maybe I'm exaggerating but there is something deliciously romantic with the way you worded it. It clearly painted a picture in my mind of the Mammoth's thundering quick gait and long frozen fur swaying back and forth. If anything it is a testament to your editing skills. Bravo! Yes a group of elephants is called a herd of elephants however it is also acceptable to write; "A pack of elephants separated from the main herd." or "A brood of bull elephants ignited the stampede in the market square." Literature and grammar, linguistics and writing to me it is all about the words. Every language has a finite number of them. Of course every year new words are created but for arguments sake right now in this moment there is only so many of them. It all boils down to how the writer strings them together. Every writer wants describe mundane everyday routines excitingly; A man is on his balcony while reading a newspaper and he notices a woman riding a bike in the corner of his eye. -or- A girl flies by on a bicycle ride while newspapers write the disguise. My point is that words are beautiful and although there are grammatical standards in every language writers have always and continue to bend and sometimes break the parameters that are taught to them. Poets and writers often describe a situation using a word that has a different meaning then what it is being used to describe. ie. It was a foggy night. -or- My memory is foggy. Sometimes they even change a noun to an adverb or adjective; The noun, verb and adjective for beautifully; beauty,beautify,beautiful The noun, adjective and adverb for disobey; disobedience,disobedient, disobediently The noun, verb and adjective for persuasively; persuasion,persuade,persuasive However in my mid the pinnacle of the written word is when you creatively take a word and are able to spin it so that it is used in an original fashion. These moments when words have a way of transcending art should be celebrated and encouraged ~Pp
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Post by loriel on May 6, 2013 7:57:55 GMT
Another interesting difference is the apparent US dislike for double letters, particularly within verbs - for example travelled and travelling become traveled and traveling.
An exception to prove the rule is fulfil, which is apparently expanded to fulfill in US English.
Unfortunately I think the abbreviation of programme to program seems to have been accepted for technical writing - though some of us still refer to "computer programmes" from time to time.
Loriel
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2013 20:47:53 GMT
As for the names for groups of animals, it can get silly very quickly. I doubt that most people know which ones to use for all animals, not in their native language and certainly not in a foreign language. Herd, pack and flock are common enough (although I associate flock mostly with birds just like Wotan did, despite what the formal definition of it may be) but a parade of elephants, or a shrewdness of apes? Only experts would know those, I imagine. Yes I can see you point about the number of names can sound silly to people who's first language is not English however children are taught these words in Elementary School. As Blockhead's music teacher taught him, there are many synonyms in English. By the time a child enters grade four they are already learning how to use a Thesaurus. Of course most people don't remember all of the terms like a Zoologist but we all know that these terms exist and we would recall many of these terms. Of course when you translate words into other languages all groups of wild animals would be translated into "herds" because it is simpler that way. That is why I clearly stated that there are the main words; fock, herd, drove, pack, gang and brood. LoL we could also use the word "bevy" bevy; Noun A large group of people or things of a particular kind. A group of birds, particularly when closely gathered on the ground. Synonyms flock - herd - swarm - crowd - cluster - group - troop That's the English language for you. For any English writers out there a Thesaurus is your best friend. It will help you learn new words and make your stories more colourful. But of course it's perfectly possible to herd a flock of sheep. ;D Exactly. The word "herd" can be used as a Noun or a Verb and that is why we have other words that mean the same thing. It would sound silly and be confusing if you wrote; "He herded the herd of Camels with a motorcycle." Another interesting difference is the apparent US dislike for double letters, ...programme... Loriel HA! A sublime example loriel! Not only does the word "programme" have a double letter but it is also an example of the letter "e" at the end of a word which as you know is another difference between the two standards. I strongly suspect that the letter "e" at the end of CE words is an influence from the French language as many French words end in "e". ie. (E) forum; (F) forume As I'm sure you are somewhat aware, the percentage of modern English words derived from each language group are as follows: French: ~29% * that is around 80,000 words not including synonyms thereby making it the most influential language in English. Latin (including words used only in scientific / medical / legal contexts): ~29% Germanic: ~26% *This includes all other languages that are derived from German. I could be mistaken but I am of the impression that it would include Swedish. Others: ~17% One of my biggest pet peeves is that in every forum on the net the spell check is always in the American standard making me having to double check the spell check
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Post by loriel on May 6, 2013 21:35:50 GMT
One of my biggest pet peeves is that in every forum on the net the spell check is always in the American standard making me having to double check the spell check I use the built-in spellchecker in Firefox - you can choose which language to check against, so I usually use UK English, but US English for Elder Scrolls text (mostly). It also has the Canadian variety available, though I've not yet used it enough to see how different it is. Loriel
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 1:04:08 GMT
One of my biggest pet peeves is that in every forum on the net the spell check is always in the American standard making me having to double check the spell check I use the built-in spellchecker in Firefox - you can choose which language to check against, so I usually use UK English, but US English for Elder Scrolls text (mostly). It also has the Canadian variety available, though I've not yet used it enough to see how different it is. Loriel WHAT!?!? A built-in spellchecker in Firefox where I can choose which language to check against and it has the Canadian variety available!?!? No flapping way!?!? I use Firefox with roughly 25 add-ons. How come I don't know about this And why can't I find it. Can you please tell me what buttons you press to use it? OMG! I have got to have it. I'm off to look for it right now. Thanks for telling me about it ~Pp EDIT: Look who has her new Canadian Dictionary... Yep! That's right... me ;D Hmm... Do you think they have a Thesaurus?
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Post by loriel on May 7, 2013 6:05:46 GMT
Hmm... Do you think they have a Thesaurus? Try Tools then Add-ons and search for Thesaurus - though they probably won't have one in Canadian English... Loriel
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 18:13:21 GMT
Hmm... Do you think they have a Thesaurus? Try Tools then Add-ons and search for Thesaurus - though they probably won't have one in Canadian English... Loriel I found one TheSage English Dictionary and Thesaurus 4.5.0.1784, size 9.22 Mb. www.fileguru.com/apps/canadian_english_dictionary/freeware And my Web of Trust (WoT) add-on says it is safe. However to be honest I prefer to use the British one online www.onlinethesaurus.co.uk/because I have a Canadian one at work and at home.
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Post by wotan on May 7, 2013 18:38:56 GMT
More differences between Imperial and US English include:
u omitted in US writing Ex Armour, Colour, Honour are written as Armor, Color, Honor
ise becomes ize in US Ex Colonise becomes Colonize etc
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Post by loriel on May 7, 2013 20:48:39 GMT
There's a useful wiki article at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences comparing the two approaches to spelling. The ize/ise difference is actually a little more complicated - and covered in some detail in that article. Both are accepted in English (UK) whilst English (US) only uses ize. However, I agree that the ise form is much more widely used in the UK. One difference which we touched on earlier is the "dropped e" in US - in the example I quoted it was programme -> program which also incorporates the singling of double letters in American. The American conversion of "Axe" to "Ax" is one that I find awkward, and I am pleased that the UK version seems to be preferred in the Elder Scrolls Universe. Loriel NOTE - I am trying to keep this somewhat on-topic, concerning spellings in the Elder Scrolls Mods. Alternatively we could start a separate English v American (v Canadian?) spelling thread somewhere more appropriate, like the Tavern.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2013 21:49:56 GMT
u omitted in US writing Ex Armour, Colour, Honour are written as Armor, Color, Honor Was already mentioned earlier. One of the obvious differences between British and American standards is that the CE standard usually has a "u" following an "o"; "our", - "or"; In British English (e.g. colour, flavour, harbour, honour, humour, labour, neighbour, rumour) end in -or in American English (color, flavor, harbor, honor, humor, labor, neighbor, rumor). ise becomes ize in US Ex Colonise becomes Colonize etc Nice catch I forgot about that one. When I was a child my family would go to our country home on weekends in Stowe Vermont. Our cottage was in the backyard of Mount Mansfield. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_MansfieldAnyways when we used to cross the border the gas stations would all be spelled as gaz stations. My father used to tease my brothers and sisters and I that they spelled it wrong There's a useful wiki article at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences comparing the two approaches to spelling. The ize/ise difference is actually a little more complicated - and covered in some detail in that article. Both are accepted in English (UK) whilst English (US) only uses ize. However, I agree that the ise form is much more widely used in the UK. loriel True it does get very complicated. I read the article and there was some differences I was not aware of. I enjoyed the section about "Different spellings for different meanings" Americans love their "Z". In Canada we too use the "S" following the Commonwealth standard. If you use a "z" when an "s" should be used it would be marked as incorrect by the English teacher.
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Post by wotan on Jun 8, 2013 13:58:41 GMT
Just a minor typo I came across just now - When we go to visit Shroud Hearth Barrow, Vilja says "I'm sure the Ivarsted people are right about this place being haunted." The town name is spelled "Ivarstead"
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