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Post by cumbersum on Mar 1, 2024 3:25:49 GMT
Hello all...i am a frustrated and confused elder scrolls 4 newbie. After playing daggerfall and morrowind, i am in oblivion with Oblivion. I am on my 4th character now (a female Breton) and I'm still confused as to how the 'efficient levelling' works. Upon increasing to level 2, I chose my 3 5s to attributes endur, agility and speed. I already have 50 for both intelligence and willpower, so i want to concentrate on endurance (again), agility (again), and strength. After waking from sleep, i find experience progress bar to be 1/4 up already?!?...i assumed that progress bar should start from zero again, no? Also some people say levelling in oblivion is broken...i don't know if broken, but definitely frustrating. I believe daggerfall was broken (get stuck between 2 dungeon levels, and part of journal entries disappear) despite it being my 2nd favorite elder scroll. (The dungeon sound effects is a winner for most creepiest and eerie). Anyways back to oblivion - game says (after choosing your 7 major skills) that you should concentrate on these when levelling, yet some people say you need to work on minor skills first....confused...again. all i know is that 10 skill increases equal +5 for that attribute linked to it...so (for endurance) i can get +5 if i get 5 increases in block (major) and 5 increases in armorer (minor) in any order? Also, i'd like to play the game without using the scroll duplication bug, but to full advantage...i noticed progress bar not moving during tutorial despite announcements of skill increases????so i thought I'd get free willpower, agility and speed without danger from rats and goblins (and the one zombie), so i would run, jump and sneak right in the room where you fall down and see the king, borus and glennie waiting. After stocking up on agility and speed, it's fun to pick off glennie and barus with firebolts. Even more fun watching them running around trying to nail you (they are 1 story lower than me), and don't use their bow at me. I guess they're not scripted to die by player. After i felt i tanked up enough destruction spell, i jumped down to king who prevents guards from finishing me off. Needless to say, borus asks if I'm a battlemage...Why do all previous skillups not count in progress bar? Also why that skirmisher goblin in fort urasek such a hit point sponge? Almost impossible to defeat him with melee - have to get his attention with a firebolt potshot at him...runs at me and i jump down from causeway and almost kill him with arrows (i guess he don't have good acrobatics or is scared to jump). Then i run back to top of causeway and finish him with melee. Although sometimes orc adventurer nails him before i can - he robs me of available experience points, no? Anyways, what am i doing wrong levelling? Specialty is combat, the 2 specialty skills chosen were endurance and agility, as i chose warrior (endurance + strength). Majors are blade, block, Alteration, illusion, mysticism, light armor and marksman. I am now at level 2 and progress already is 40% up. Prent attributes are: str:40, int:50, wil:50, ag:40, spd:45, end:50, per:40, luc:50. (Also why does Luck not show +1 when levelling?) This game loses its appeal when you need a pen and paper next to you every time a skill increases (major or minor?)...Morrowind for me seems to have had better atmosphere and fluidity. Only time i needed pen &paper there was to record alchemy recipes. But daggerfall wins in audio....thanks for any suggestions.
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Post by Sniffles on Mar 1, 2024 8:05:59 GMT
cumbersum The leveling system is the MOSTEST MAJOR GRIPE everyone has with Oblivion. A Mt. Everest plummet below fetid garbage. The reason why I gave up shortly after starting a new play through several years ago. I'll let others better informed than I to offer suggestions.
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 1, 2024 15:05:53 GMT
Been a while since Oblivion but if I recall, majors are 2 points while minors are a single point.
Yeah, confusing....but it isn't that important as the game seems to aim for the middle stats rather than making you try to max-out stats to get anywhere quest-wise...like say in Fallout New Vegas.
My advice...just play.
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Post by cumbersum on Mar 1, 2024 17:52:46 GMT
Ok thanks for the major/minor point spread. Not sure now if game is 'broken'...i walked by the beggar lady asking imperial guard "please sir, anything to eat?" and guard says "you have my ear citizen"....mmmmm - fresh 👂 to eat! Honestly, you'd figure the beggars would harvest the mushrooms and lotus flowers and sell them to that alchemy merchant 🤔
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Renee G
Not A Stranger Anymore
Posts: 37
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Post by Renee G on Mar 1, 2024 18:04:22 GMT
Agreed with Sniffles. The way the world levels upward was the most immersion-breaking thing I had ever seen in any RPG, ever up until that point of my gaming career. Which was especially glaring to me at the time because I absolutely loved the rest of TES4. Oblivion was my very first Elder Scrolls game.
I wasn't bothered so much that some enemies get harder, but I did not like the way good loot begins to show up Everywhere, all at once. It made more sense (to me) when this better, mostly magical loot, was rare. And the way weaker enemies get "replaced" by stronger ones. Land dreughs appear and suddenly they're everywhere! Minotaurs appear, and suddenly they're everywhere! It's like: Oblivion centers so obviously around the Player, trying desperately to keep challenge to the max. Sense of progression falls to just about nil, imo. I know this sounds like I'm ranting, as OB is "just a game", but for me it completely broke the experience, leveling did, especially into the teens and 20s. I actually stopped playing OB for four months back in 2008. (sad)
It's not broken, in fact OB's leveling system works exactly as designed. But I agree it's frustrating. And immersion-breaking (for me). And illogical.
Anyway, my "fix" years ago when I gamed on PS3 was what I called Minors for Majors. Set the character so that 2 or 3 Majors will often get used, maybe another two Majors which seldom get used, and 3 or 4 which rarely (or never) get used. An example: if I had a mage, I'd give him or her Illusion and Destruction as Majors, but then leave Conjuration and all the others as Minors. I'd give this mage Armorer and Hand-to-Hand, stuff was which was completely out of the box, even though it breaks the mage's typical creed (magic). Those skills, he or she would never use. This way, not only does the game not level out of control, but it mimics all those slower RPGs we played with dice & books in high school.
Some folks don't like this because it's metagaming, which seems out-of-place while setting up someone for an RPG. However, it's also "set it and forget it", as the saying goes. I set the character up, now I don't have to worry about all the other stuff.
That's my solution before playing with mods, anyway. Nowadays I game mostly on PC. I realize this doesn't help you much where you are now. It only 'works' when first structuring a character. Anyway.
Some others have fixed the problem by never sleeping (which means never leveling), but I can't go that route. I'm a roleplayer, after all.
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Renee G
Not A Stranger Anymore
Posts: 37
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Post by Renee G on Mar 1, 2024 18:24:06 GMT
Actually, are you gaming on console or computer, OP? If you're on computer that means mods. You can do all sorts of things to remedy your situation, IF the idea of modifying your game doesn't bother you.
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Post by jgf on Mar 2, 2024 1:18:23 GMT
You could try "Kobu's Character Advancement System" mod, it removes all fuss with the points system. You set a few parameters at the start (type of character, preferred skills, etc.) and the mod handles everything in the background as you play, giving you messages that you've leveled up or a skill has improved. Along with Vilja this makes Oblivion much more enjoyable.
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Post by cumbersum on Mar 2, 2024 4:24:08 GMT
Ok...thanks for all suggestions. I'm on PC, but think I'll try to slug it through without mods. I'll just have to be careful where all my experience goes. Does this mean if i want to devote my next 3 5s to attributes other than speed, i need to stop running&jumping&swimming (i have no control over lightarmor skill advancing when fighting as i cannot carry stuff if wearing heavy armor)...This would make movement back&forth to city immensely slow! i think i can deal with the hitpoint sponges - when enemies attack i just run out of dungeon ruins and climb the broken walls to a higher point than enemy. The only problem is i cannot advance melee, only destruction or marksmanship. Some of them drown also - the goblin skirmisher could not pursue me across lake. (I think he can be picked off while treading water) some also swam slower than me in pursuit. So I'd cross the lake several times. Picked them off with firebolt as they were approaching shore, then swim back to other side while magicka recharges. Others i would run backwards firing destruction spells (as Breton, magicka recovery pretty quick). Apparently you can conveniently move through trees.
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Post by dogonporch on Mar 2, 2024 13:34:43 GMT
I'd usually wear a mix of light and heavy armor so that both had a chance of going up.
If you can find it on Nexus, I'd recommend the mod that drains fatigue when you run/jump. While you don't need MORE trouble holding you back, the mod works on NPCs and creatures too. So those goblins swimming across the lake would be VERY tired by the time they reached shore.
It also makes drain fatigue potions suddenly WORTH it. If you can get an NPC to hit negative fatigue...he/she/it falls down!
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Renee G
Not A Stranger Anymore
Posts: 37
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Post by Renee G on Mar 2, 2024 14:01:38 GMT
Well if you're on PC, and ever choose to roll a new character you've got a ton of options. Too many to list, really. jgf mentioned one of them. And the funny thing is, I hardly use mods to 'fix' the problem of leveling, other than Brasher's Oblivion Overhaul and also Fundament. Brasher's: Allows me to set how rare or common a variety of armors and weapon types (iron, mithril, Dwarven, etc.) show up in loot, as well as what NPC enemies wear. " A rather light leveled list overhaul mod that makes it so armors and weapons better than silver and steel are rare, hostile NPC grunts are around level 15-20, and both wimpy and tough creatures can pop up at any time during your game," Brasher promises. There are several features within the mod, all of which can be turned on and off. Fundament: This includes a lot of features, all customizable by .ini files, but I only use one of these, which allows me to change how fast or how slow skills level upwards. Example: Restoration is the slowest-leveling magic skill, while Conjuration and (I think) Illusion go up ridiculously fast. I set all magic skills to Restoration's pace. I prefer slower-moving games, as RPG gaming back in the day (with pencils and books and dice) was a very slow process, and I prefer this. Anyway, if you ever start another guy or gal, just know there are options. Plenty of them!
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Post by Sniffles on Mar 3, 2024 0:44:16 GMT
For what it is worth, my partner came up with a solution to the leveling system for the PC. It requires some introspection and being brutally honest with yourself. At every level up you take note of how much improvement overall you have. A number. Then level using the game leveling system. Then open the console and take into account what you have done in actual game play and opportunities where, time and place permitting, the PC would have undertaken training OR simply learned naturally from circumstances. Separate the game mechanics from the roleplay. Often similar to each other. Then in the console you adjust up and down the various stats giving the PC the sum total earned using simple logic. Rule: 5+5+5 or even more overall is always possible but not just three categories. The total of 15 is slightly flexible and spread over everything.
Strength and Endurance always increases. Factor in physical activity. Marathon activity favors endurance, close combat and exertion as climbing favors strength. Agility increases using the rule of how well damage has been avoided and negotiating difficult terrain.
Personality is increased in direct relation to social contact. Lots of Inns and engaging in dialogues. Intelligence is increased by magical use and academic studies reflected in alchemy. Always factor in fails as part of the learning lessons. Speed and Willpower are different, calculated last. They are fixed at 1 since they improve indirectly. Speed is adjusted upwards by Agility and Endurance, Willpower by Endurance and successful accomplishments. A sloppy barely survived dungeon crawl vs taking your time and being meticulous, getting and and out with minimum of fuss and mess even if it takes a lot longer time..
So yes, micro management and some soul searching is in order. A gameplay session set aside specifically to review what you have done and how well you did it.
For example, me, dedicated flower picker given to strolling and esthetics involving scaling near impossible terrain, my 5+5+5, 15 total, is usually dialed down to 8-12 due to my RP style. But my sessions, hours of play and save game reverts in defeating Umbra and getting that sword scored me 7+6+1. Endurance and willpower over the top, Intelligence as dumb as a doorknob plus a little bit for creativity. My intelligence always suffers as in my pursuit of ingredients I often accidentally stumble into fights. When I distracted and maneuvered Glarthir up to dive rock and pushed him off my stats got extremely skewed for that leveling, Intelligence 2 (malice aforethought), Personality -2 (natch), Agility 3 (survive the trek and avoid his dozens of attacks), Strength 1 (the trek, shoving him etc), Willpower and Endurance, 7 and 5. 16 total.
ALSO, use your weirdness! Your quirks and oddities the game never takes into account. For example. I worked out a methodology and ended up selling around 100 Black Bows. What I call a fudge factor. I think I gave myself 1 or 2 extra leveling points entirely outside the Oblivion box for the effort.
Factors I usually use tailored for my style of game play. Tanking fights 0. Strength might get a 1, intelligence a -1.
Sniping and tactical encounters - successful, Agility 1, Intelligence 1.
Potion cooking Intelligence 1or 2, Strength -1, Personality -1, selling potions Personality 1 Stupid moves as in falling off cliffs; dieing -2, surviving - Endurance and Agility 1/2 + 1/2.
Completing a quest the wrong way, outside the box, always gives a 1 for creativity. Lots of opportunities there in the DLCs
Crime always gives a -1, morality issues. Some DLCs always give -1 or -2 for engaging in general stupidity. Horse armor? (Psycho micromanagement esthetics for the foof inclined. Just paint your uncontrollable critter with camo). Vile Lair? Fighters Stronghold? (Augment what you already have!) The Orrery?? (Just what you always suspected, Oblivion the game - functions and crashes, are dictated by the phase of the moon.) Other DLCs like Shivering Isles afford a wonderful opportunity to do things wrong and somehow make them work.
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Renee G
Not A Stranger Anymore
Posts: 37
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Post by Renee G on Mar 3, 2024 1:40:11 GMT
That is quite comprehensive, Sniffles! See, back in the day there were folks who were into roleplay, but there were others who were also way into the numbers side of things. I'm more of a roleplayer, but that's one of the things I like about the older RPGs, they catered to both sides of the coin.
This, too. This is the sort of stuff which really makes each game & character unique.
The gal I am with now for instance: Joan of Arkay. She's got a huge backstory, since she began her tale in Morrowind, and now she is in Year 1 of the 4th Era (mods...) She's not especially quirky or odd, she is a Crusader, and probably my most conventional character I game with. But she does use Destruction spells alongside of Turn Undead & Restoration. Destruction is not supposed to be used by someone of her ilk, if we're talking of the old-skool DnD terms. But she learned Fire & Frost spells when she was a teen, and finds them useful for ranged targets!
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Post by Sniffles on Mar 3, 2024 2:35:36 GMT
That is quite comprehensive, Sniffles! See, back in the day there were folks who were into roleplay, but there were others who were also way into the numbers side of things. I'm more of a roleplayer, but that's one of the things I like about the older RPGs, they catered to both sides of the coin.
This, too. This is the sort of stuff which really makes each game & character unique.
The gal I am with now for instance: Joan of Arkay. She's got a huge backstory, since she began her tale in Morrowind, and now she is in Year 1 of the 4th Era (mods...) She's not especially quirky or odd, she is a Crusader, and probably my most conventional character I game with. But she does use Destruction spells alongside of Turn Undead & Restoration. Destruction is not supposed to be used by someone of her ilk, if we're talking of the old-skool DnD terms. But she learned Fire & Frost spells when she was a teen, and finds them useful for ranged targets!
Excellent example with Joan of Arkay. (For me) Incorporating her abilities into PC planned activities would always add 1 or more, (1+1) depending upon depth. Action -> reaction a 1, action -> further action, planned, thought ahead, (1+1+1) would get 2 - Intelligence plus creativity (a significant factor absent in the leveling system).
A serious nod to my partner Squishy for her take on the leveling. Meticulous detail is her forte.
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Renee G
Not A Stranger Anymore
Posts: 37
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Post by Renee G on Mar 3, 2024 4:12:03 GMT
Sniffy and Squishy!
you know, I was kinda nervous about joining Emma's site, but I gotta say I really feel at home here.
On-topic (sort of): OP, there is also Maskars Oblivion Overhaul. Great comprehensive overhaul which gets into a little bit of everything. Not just leveling, but also disease, food & drink needs, lock-bashing, NPC vampires taking sun damage if they leave their comfy lairs (my favorite), the list goes on and on. All of it is customizable, and none of it will leave much footprint in your game; meaning, MOO works with a few other overhauls out there so conflicts are minimal.
I discovered MOO rather late in my modding career, so I only use a handful of its features, because a lot of other stuff (such as lock-bashing) I've already got covered. Anyway....
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Post by Aatrnasyn on Mar 3, 2024 15:17:54 GMT
I don't know if Oblivion has an equivalent mod, but Skyrim SE (at least) has a mod that does that skill leveling automatically. I love it. It's called Smart Automatic Attribute Leveling SAAL SAAL automates Health/Magicka/Stamina distribution at level up based on the skills you used.
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