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Post by Emma on Apr 30, 2015 17:45:34 GMT
Hmm... ok I'll play I don't get it really but I am interested in entertaining your thought; so why don't you poll your own play testing team and see if they like the idea of alpha and beta testing your work so you can then put it up for sale. That would be a good place to start and test your thesis. Now you may have such loyal fans that they may want you to have the money so the poll results may be skewed (not accurate) so we may have to pose the question in a larger forum and see what the masses think. In order to do this Emma, I think we need to shrink your idea into a smaller one or 2 sentence question. can you re-write your thought in 2 or 3 lines so that it is simpler to understand? ie. Question: "Would the community Beta Test my next companion mod so I could sell it on Steam?" or something like that... and then we can get very short answer like "yes because" or "no because"... What do you think? I think you are most likely right Of course I wouldn't dream of requesting such a thing. When I was writing this down, I was looking upon it more as a way to, if Beth and Valve insists on doing this, and modders insist on using the paywall, players could still get a chance to get a mod for free to test it out. That way the players would know if mods were worth buying, and everyone would know that it didn't contain stolen content and wasn't conflicting, bloating etc etc. I'm sure you know that *I* don't want this; I was just thinking of a way to push some damage-control and some freedom to choose into a system that might be forced upon us in the future. Two or three lines you said: - Players: It is more acceptable to buy a mod that you have had the freedom to play and test during a longer (6 weeks) period. As you grabbed the mod at this early stage, it is yours for free. - Modders: A modder who wants to sell his work can still give it away for free for say 6 weeks, in return those who gets it for free might or might not report issues. - Devs: As the mod has already been out there for several weeks, there is unlikely to be later arising problems concerning stolen content and bugs. I DO NOT WANT PAYWALLS AT ALL.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 17:49:56 GMT
Last night, I decided to refresh my memory on a short story, "Who Moved My Cheese?" ( 32-page PDF provided by Washington State University) If you haven't read it, it's a very interesting read; if you have, it's worth re-reading. I haven't change my stance on this matter, but like Emma already stated, instead on keep contemplating how to keep the old cheese, I think we need to find the new cheese (new cheese doesn't mean I given up on the old cheese) and know what our fears are (and if they are magnified). I will let you know what my cheeses are, if they dawn on me. First of all I love this story and I have heard it before in a shorter version. I never new about this version so thanks for that. I also encourage everyone to read read it. I have thought about Emma's a little more: People will release mods for free and those mods will be base mods. Like buying a car without any options; no power steering, so electric windows, no air conditioning... and then the mod author will work on another version with all the whistles and bells to sell on Steam. Meanwhile any bugs reported the mod author will fix on both versions because they are bugs and it just makes sense to fix them. What do you thunk bout dem apples?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 17:54:55 GMT
I think you are most likely right Of course I wouldn't dream of requesting such a thing. When I was writing this down, I was looking upon it more as a way to, if Beth and Valve insists on doing this, and modders insist on using the paywall, players could still get a chance to get a mod for free to test it out. That way the players would know if mods were worth buying, and everyone would know that it didn't contain stolen content and wasn't conflicting, bloating etc etc. I'm sure you know that *I* don't want this; I was just thinking of a way to push some damage-control and some freedom to choose into a system that might be forced upon us in the future. No please don't get me wrong. I totally get you here. You are brainstorming. you are just shooting thoughts and ideas out there. I love brainstorming because there is no such thing as good or bad ideas. In a brainstorming session all ideas are important because you never know what they may turn into. Sometimes what is veiwed as a bad idea sparks someone else to think of a great idea. That is why I love brainstorming sessions. So much fun
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Post by jgf on Apr 30, 2015 18:13:59 GMT
That is well known. And the reason I still do not have Skyrim. Well maybe in twenty years from now Skyrim will be free of Steam. In the meantime, I'm afraid you'll have to stop playing or play old games. "old games"? I have a sizable library of such and frequently trot out a few to reinstall and enjoy again. MS FlightSim and my racing sims have been on my system for years, as has Morrowind. And I've found too many newer titles are initially impressive but have no depth, after a couple of months it is "been there, done that" ($20 for Farming Simulator, was bored with it after a month; $30 for Euro Truck Sim, it lasted three months; $20 for Morrowind ...12 years and counting). "stop playing"? I only eschew those games which demand I give the developer/distributor unfettered access to my computer. I do not mind allowing one time contact for validation/authentication/registration/authorization, or whatever other "-ations" they require, but afterwards there is absolutely no acceptable reason for them to be in contact with my computer. There are plenty of games available without such invasive and intrusive policies, they will get my money.
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Post by Seyheb on Apr 30, 2015 18:55:45 GMT
I'm going to comment on Emma's full list of 'thoughts' here. I think it is an excellent idea to think about some contingencies and suggestions ready for some damage control should Beth and Valve insist on moving towards paid mods, even though we do not want that to happen. I think the ideas are very good. However I suspect some modders seeking a paywall may have issues with a "free" window, fearing it would lose them potential sales, and they would need convincing that this 'quality assurance free period' would in fact assure them of more sales in the longer term if their mod proved to be good. I also suspect that many modders are likely to consider six weeks 'free' to be too long in any case, even if they are prepared to agree to a 'beta' period in principle, unless it was a major mod. Maybe there could be some sort of sliding-scale system based on the size and scope of the mods, where very small mods were given just a few days or a week of testing, up to large mods that may be given up to a month or more? Perhaps another alternative (or even combined with the above) would be to create a closed volunteer group of testers and quality-checkers who would sign-up with Valve/Beth to test and report back on mods, their reward being to receive the final mod for free or at a discount. Of course many major mods already have a dedicated team of helpers and testers (e.g. thinking of one example mod in particular! ) but some external testing would probably still be needed for independent quality assurance. [P.S. Just to emphasise again that I support Emma's view about NOT having paywalls for the reasons she has given]
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Post by wotan on Apr 30, 2015 20:21:33 GMT
You can never gurantee a completely bugfree or non-conflicting product. Testing everything takes thousands and thousands of man-hours and there just isn't enough testers to test and report every little thing. That's why you always get patches for released products - the devs just don't have enough time to test and find everything before release, so they must rely on their customers to catch the last bits.
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Post by jgf on Apr 30, 2015 20:45:03 GMT
... - Players: It is more acceptable to buy a mod that you have had the freedom to play and test during a longer (6 weeks) period. As you grabbed the mod at this early stage, it is yours for free. - Modders: A modder who wants to sell his work can still give it away for free for say 6 weeks, in return those who gets it for free might or might not report issues. - Devs: As the mod has already been out there for several weeks, there is unlikely to be later arising problems concerning stolen content and bugs. ... I doubt developers and distributors would ever favor such a system. Unless there were some time-limited trial version cognoscenti would download each mod during its free period, even if just to archive it for later use, leaving newcomers to pay the price. There are already too many "free" mods for various games only available via Steam, even if you have a real version of a particular game you must create a Steam account if you want one of those mods (note - this is not just register on their site in order to download, this is create an active account and allow Steam to install their unnecessary bloatware on your system ...just to download a "free", fan created, mod). If gamers accept and patronize payware mods this situation will only get worse. I have nothing against payware per se, but it should be via the mod developers, not funneled through the jack-booted minions of Steam (or Origin or EA or ... ).
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Post by blockhead on Apr 30, 2015 22:11:38 GMT
Why don't people do like we did in the days when Morrowind was "the" game. Each modder put their mods on their web site and would post links in various forums and that would be the end of it. Comments would be left on the announce or "wip" threads and there would be none of this sillyness of voting and rating.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 1:37:47 GMT
Why don't people do like we did in the days when Morrowind was "the" game. Each modder put their mods on their web site and would post links in various forums and that would be the end of it. Comments would be left on the announce or "wip" threads and there would be none of this sillyness of voting and rating. Because the new generation of modders think they can get rich from modding not realizing that although a few may reach that pinnacle of success, the majority will not. The way I see it maybe 1-2% of mod users will make actually create a mod worth enough money to be sold on Steam. I can't stand up-voting and down-voting, kudos and endorsements and likes and dislikes... I find it all nauseating. There is a lot of peer pressure in this system. If you wantr to make friends then you kind of have to start endorsing their comments or pictures and mods. I always say that a kind word is worth a thousand endorsements and I turn off the endorsement feature when I have the choice. Mods is a little different because of the time and effort that was put in and I think a good mod deserves and endorsement after a few months of play testing. These days when a mod is released they get 1-3 hundred endorsements in the first few days. it is impossible that the mods were played and tested to deserve an endorsement. The system id broken. It is the "LIKE" generation. This generation actually thinks this is important. There was a study 3-4 years back where psychologists found out that children were showing serious signs of depression based on not receiving enough "Likes" on Facebook. So we have a generation of young adults whose whole life is built on positive reinforcement in the form of a "like". It is really bizarre. I am lucky to have 4 brothers and sister so as much as I love the internet I don't value the "like" and "endorsements" as the rest of my peers and the younger generation behind me. I have learned that it is mostly a popularity contest and it means very little in the long run.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 3:03:11 GMT
It is the "LIKE" generation. This generation actually thinks this is important. There was a study 3-4 years back where psychologists found out that children were showing serious signs of depression based on not receiving enough "Likes" on Facebook. So we have a generation of young adults whose whole life is built on positive reinforcement in the form of a "like". It is really bizarre. Are you saying 1.2 BILLION Zuckerberg addicts are ... insecure, herd oriented ..... Good reading: A Nation of Sheep by Judge Andrew P. Napolitano Personally, I'm waiting for some religion to guarantee a place in foofy cloud heaven with enough 'like' clicks. Or has that already happened? Ultimate irony? One of the commonest ailments that people go to their doctor for is IFM. Impacted Fecal Material, aka full of shit. See Facebook. It's not just the bowels involved. What?!? Me, insult 1.2 BILLION people?!?... Hmmm... ya, that sounds like something I would do After a weekend of writing emails, posting in threads, I am sure half that amount took insult just based on my view alone. I love good non fiction social study books but I stay away from anything/one that uses the term "sheep" or "sheeple"... I find it to be dehumanizing and insulting. It is commonly used by the far right wing extremist street culture and fringe political groups in the united states and in northern Europe. Like 911 truthers, ufo conspirators, the Tea Party, white supremacy groups and the Ultra Right, the Patriot movement and Constitutionalists, left wing environmentalist extremists, social anarchy groups and other fringe movements. All that stuff I have studied in depth at University so although it interests me solely in a psychological context, it holds zero attraction to me otherwise. But hey, I am open to other reading suggestions These days I am trying to get through Ray Kurzweils, "The Age of Spiritual Machines." and anything by Howard Bloom.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 7:44:16 GMT
Why don't people do like we did in the days when Morrowind was "the" game. Each modder put their mods on their web site and would post links in various forums and that would be the end of it. Comments would be left on the announce or "wip" threads and there would be none of this sillyness of voting and rating. That's what I'm up to do. I've already created a blog; it's empty yet but I'm intended to load my mods over there and put a link to it in my signature. I'll shut off the various "liking" systems, if there are somes and just leave the comments available for visitors. Here is my blog; like I said it's empty but you can tell me what you think about the look of it!
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 8:11:04 GMT
Or herd mentality? You're the one who brought up the Like generation. So try the opposite direction. Maybe The Second Sex by Beauvoir. I mentioned Napolitano for his stance on originalism as Emma has been speaking about. As an active feminist, I have been involved in establishing equal opportunities for women in education and employment for the past decade. Simone de Beauvoir is a French cultural hero and is standard reading here in Quebec. I have read most of her published work.
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Post by jet4571 on May 1, 2015 10:13:56 GMT
I can't stand up-voting and down-voting, kudos and endorsements and likes and dislikes... I find it all nauseating. This right here is what brought paid mods to the forefront and why it is even being debated. DarkOne is one of those that is responsible for this because he introduced or allowed to be introduced competition in modding Bethesda games. Started with Endorsements and now there are far too many competitions that are quite frankly pathetic, disgusting, and needs to be removed. There are hundreds of hidden gems in the Skyrim section that are barely touched because they just happened to come out later than their rivals. Top 100 is straight up a who came first competition. If I were to make a mod today similar to the #1 of the top 100 list in any of the Bethesda games but makes that top game look like "Cabbage in a pot" in comparison my far superior mod will never ever receive the same amount of downloads simply because of time. But these are supposed to be the very best mods and everyone is supposed to compete against them because there is file of the month completion and Hotfiles. False belief that a top 100 can be supplanted with a new mod 2 years after the competition began much less 3 or more years. The whole endorsement system disgusts me and I am vocal about it. But it's too late, half the Nexus is built around a measurement of who came first and the plebes believe it stands for quality.
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Post by Falion on May 1, 2015 11:01:00 GMT
Why don't people do like we did in the days when Morrowind was "the" game. Each modder put their mods on their web site and would post links in various forums and that would be the end of it. Comments would be left on the announce or "wip" threads and there would be none of this sillyness of voting and rating. Because the new generation of modders think they can get rich from modding not realizing that although a few may reach that pinnacle of success, the majority will not. The way I see it maybe 1-2% of mod users will make actually create a mod worth enough money to be sold on Steam. I can't stand up-voting and down-voting, kudos and endorsements and likes and dislikes... I find it all nauseating. There is a lot of peer pressure in this system. If you wantr to make friends then you kind of have to start endorsing their comments or pictures and mods. I always say that a kind word is worth a thousand endorsements and I turn off the endorsement feature when I have the choice. Mods is a little different because of the time and effort that was put in and I think a good mod deserves and endorsement after a few months of play testing. These days when a mod is released they get 1-3 hundred endorsements in the first few days. it is impossible that the mods were played and tested to deserve an endorsement. The system id broken. It is the "LIKE" generation. This generation actually thinks this is important. There was a study 3-4 years back where psychologists found out that children were showing serious signs of depression based on not receiving enough "Likes" on Facebook. So we have a generation of young adults whose whole life is built on positive reinforcement in the form of a "like". It is really bizarre. I am lucky to have 4 brothers and sister so as much as I love the internet I don't value the "like" and "endorsements" as the rest of my peers and the younger generation behind me. I have learned that it is mostly a popularity contest and it means very little in the long run. Well...dang it...I usually hit a "like" here on posts, mostly as a way to let someone know that I have actually read the darn thing. Man...I didn't realize I was so totally inept and insecure... I need a HUG... LMBO, just kidding there Pink.
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Post by Emma on May 1, 2015 11:15:43 GMT
Why don't people do like we did in the days when Morrowind was "the" game. Each modder put their mods on their web site and would post links in various forums and that would be the end of it. Comments would be left on the announce or "wip" threads and there would be none of this sillyness of voting and rating. Because the new generation of modders think they can get rich from modding not realizing that although a few may reach that pinnacle of success, the majority will not. The way I see it maybe 1-2% of mod users will make actually create a mod worth enough money to be sold on Steam. Yes, the thing is that no-one will bother with trying out someone's first mod; if you pay for something, you'll only pay for something that you know keeps up a certain standard. As in: Would I pay for a fully voiced companion with lots of new features by SmartBlueCat, author of Inigo? Yes, of course. Would I pay for a fully voiced companion with lots of new features by IAmTheNewKidOnTheBlockWithMyFirstMod? Heh, nah... I'd buy something by the author who has already delivered something I like, and then I'll wait and see what happens with that other mod. As everyone will "wait and see", there will be a huge difference between what an established modder can gain and what others can gain. I endorse that comment and give you both cudos and a thumbs up for it . You are right. I'm way to old to be part of this "LIKE" generation, but I have children who are part of it (which I guess is why I sort of have learnt to accept it). It's ghastly how Facebook takes over lives, and how "likes" and "followers" plays a large part in many youngsters lives. To compete in "friends" on Facebook etc is just weird, and as you say, it has caused so much grief for young people.
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