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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 21:04:03 GMT
lulz ladyonthemoon, statistical analysis often uses smaller samples to represent trends in the larger community. So the 200 people I know, all PC players, can be used as a research group. I did study Community Planning and have my research certification to study humans. Saddly only in an ethical manner. My point is actually that statistics which Steam and Bethesda were using in their statements can be presented to show desired results dependent upon the criteria set for the analysis. Verification of their data would be needed to prove the statistics. I love peer review. LoL You're awesome. I love smart people that actually use science to come to a logical conclusion. Whether it is true or not it makes sense to me. Besides, I don't really think this point is such a big issue anyway, still your post does put it to rest as far as I am concerned. Well done
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 21:24:45 GMT
These last few days of heavily-contentious debate over this issue on other forums (notably, Reddit) should die down now that Valve and Bethesda have pulled back...for now. But we need to be vigilant regarding their future plans. I have no faith that they've given up on this method of more monetization, and FO4 is a big candidate for them trying again, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. However, to find a bit of silver lining in all of this, the whole issue has made me more aware of how we've always been able to donate to a mod on the Nexus, if the creator makes that option available, so we can show our support with money in a way that's not hiding anything behind a paywall and seems to be good for both modders and those who use their mods. I was looking for such an option for Vilja in Skyrim, my desert island mod, but didn't see one. Emma, do you not feel that donation is not a good option either, or do you wish players to contribute in different ways to support you and the other members of the creative team who work so hard on Vilja? THIS Obviously I share your point of view up to the donation part. Donations have been very small if not completely insignificant up until this point. There may be a little increase because of this fiasco but in order to see if donations can replace or equal pay-for-mods a long term evaluation and comparison will be needed. I don't think it will hold up or compare in any way to what they could have made on Steam. Modders do stand to make a lot of money however, it would be only the 1% of modders that would be successful. The rest of us would be suckered into paying outrageous amounts of money for these mods for years to come. For instance, there were only 2-4 real good mods, at least from what I saw worth anything but the price for them in Canadian dollars were beteen 4-7 dollars! $7.00 for a mod is unaffordable. Do the math or let us together do it since I can't find the exact numbers online; so in American dollars how much did the game cost new? and how much was each DLC and now we have to add mods to that? The game will be costing a bloody fortune!!!!!! So all the mods on the top download list on the nexus, lets say 100 mods multiplied by lets say even 3 dollars and all of a sudden the game is costing how much? Lets cut it in half and go with the top 50 or even the top 25 which I think is fair. 25 x 5 =125 plus the game at 80.00 with tax plus 50 for each DLC so that is another 150 dollars with tax close to 200 so my quick total here is around 350-400 dollars for a video game... *throwing up now*
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Post by Emma on Apr 29, 2015 0:20:26 GMT
These last few days of heavily-contentious debate over this issue on other forums (notably, Reddit) should die down now that Valve and Bethesda have pulled back...for now. But we need to be vigilant regarding their future plans. I have no faith that they've given up on this method of more monetization, and FO4 is a big candidate for them trying again, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. However, to find a bit of silver lining in all of this, the whole issue has made me more aware of how we've always been able to donate to a mod on the Nexus, if the creator makes that option available, so we can show our support with money in a way that's not hiding anything behind a paywall and seems to be good for both modders and those who use their mods. I was looking for such an option for Vilja in Skyrim, my desert island mod, but didn't see one. Emma, do you not feel that donation is not a good option either, or do you wish players to contribute in different ways to support you and the other members of the creative team who work so hard on Vilja? Actually, there is a donation button for Vilja on Nexus now . I have enabled it today, and at the same time I posted the following message: But, as I always said, Vilja is our gift to the community, and we have had so much fun making her. We do not, and will never, "expect" any donations. We are thoroughly grateful when people are helping and supporting us by helping out in the Vilja-thread on Nexus or when people ask questions about her in other places. Often, players know things that we don't know (I bet half of the players are more knowledgeable in her wardrobe system than what I am, and I have no idea at ALL how NMM works). Therefore, help in the various forum-threads are invaluable.
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roykirk
Kind of A Big Deal
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Post by roykirk on Apr 29, 2015 1:02:37 GMT
Obviously I share your point of view up to the donation part. Donations have been very small if not completely insignificant up until this point. There may be a little increase because of this fiasco but in order to see if donations can replace or equal pay-for-mods a long term evaluation and comparison will be needed. I don't think it will hold up or compare in any way to what they could have made on Steam. Modders do stand to make a lot of money however, it would be only the 1% of modders that would be successful. The rest of us would be suckered into paying outrageous amounts of money for these mods for years to come. For instance, there were only 2-4 real good mods, at least from what I saw worth anything but the price for them in Canadian dollars were beteen 4-7 dollars! $7.00 for a mod is unaffordable. Do the math or let us together do it since I can't find the exact numbers online; so in American dollars how much did the game cost new? and how much was each DLC and now we have to add mods to that? The game will be costing a bloody fortune!!!!!! So all the mods on the top download list on the nexus, lets say 100 mods multiplied by lets say even 3 dollars and all of a sudden the game is costing how much? Lets cut it in half and go with the top 50 or even the top 25 which I think is fair. 25 x 5 =125 plus the game at 80.00 with tax plus 50 for each DLC so that is another 150 dollars with tax close to 200 so my quick total here is around 350-400 dollars for a video game... *throwing up now* I agree with you completely about not making up for the potential money that could have been made on Steam. I wasn't suggesting donations as a replacement so much as I was now more aware that I'd like to do something to show my appreciation for mods that I can't live without and give the devs something more than the nothing they've gotten from me so far other than my constant hyping of Vilja anytime anyone asks about good mods to download in /r/skyrimmods. Emma spoke of how the amount of time spent developing could never compare to the pittance she expects to earn from paid mods, but I'd still love to do something, whether it be a monetary donation or something else.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 5:37:07 GMT
...Skyrim will always require Steam, it's the check Bethesda uses to determine if your copy is a legal purchase or a hacked one. Think of Steam as a digital CD check. The only way you'll get a non-Steam version is if you use one that has the Steam requirement removed via a hack. That is well known. And the reason I still do not have Skyrim. Well maybe in twenty years from now Skyrim will be free of Steam. In the meantime, I'm afraid you'll have to stop playing or play old games.
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Post by jet4571 on Apr 29, 2015 6:53:05 GMT
The only way donations will even come close to a paywall is if it has a bit of a guilt trip in the way it is setup. If it had a price that is required to change to $0.00 before you are enabled to download far more players will leave it at the $0.99 out of simple guilt. Humble Bundle is a success not because they get a million penny donations but because of the little guilt of having to change the price to a penny. And for mods that system could net far more donations than a paywall in the long run. More users will be willing to use the mod and if it is great they may pay for the next update. for them a paywall and never even looked at the mods description would normally be the order of the day.
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Post by Emma on Apr 29, 2015 9:40:20 GMT
I have been thinking so much on this, and I can't help but making a guess (not stating, not predicting, merely guessing) As we all know, PC gaming is just a minority. The majority of players are on consoles, and today they can not get any mods at all. Of course this is where the money is.
My guess:
They'll leave Skyrim alone - it's an old game, and it will be even older when Fallout 4 arrives. They did all this stuff with the paywall as a test and in order to ensure that any more acceptable solution they show up with later on will cause relief rather than a roar.
Fallout 4 will have a creation kit, we might even still get it for free.
Modding proceeds as normally, and mods are not being behind paywalls
Now, the beautiful thing from game devs perspective is that they can then monitor which mods are doing well and are popular AND BUGFREE. They just have to look at downloads, ratings and feedback.
These mods, the good ones that are already well supported by their authors and compatible with most stuff, I think will be ported to consoles. And Bethesda and the Valve will charge the console players for that they can now get PC content. Of course the modder will get financially compensated, with say 25 % of the price tag. If the mod uses resources from other mods, there will be an automatic split of money, provided that the resource is available on Steam. Once this is established, the upload form for mdos will include a section where the modder agrees that his content can be ported, which resources has been made and that he promises to support his mod.
PC-mods remains free, and a resource maker can, if he wish, state that his models must not be ported to consoles. Then the mod authors know this in advance and can choose whether or not he/she wants to use the resource. If the resources is allowed to be used, the resource maker will get an auto-income.
What have we got here? A win-win-situation? Yes, probably... Just think of it...
It's the devs who pick the best mods for porting. It's an honor for a modder to get a mod ported as it means it's a good mod. Buyers will know that this is a high functionality, well working mod, as it has been playtested (for free) by lots of PC-gamers for maybe months before it is for sale. I.e. no problems with refunding or bad mod support. PC-gamers will hardly be pissed off is modders are earning money for selling to console gamers. There is no reason for Beth and the Valve to charge PC-gamers for mods - the PC-gamers are actually acting like beta-testers; their playing and feedback will ensure that the product that is sold to console gamers is of good quality, and this will reduce the risk for problems. Other modders will hardly get pissed off if modders are earning money for selling to console gamers - next time they'll be the lucky ones. As the modding community and PC-gaming community is separated from the console community, there is a fair chance that modders will keep on sharing content and knowledge, and if resource-makers are compensated when their stuff is ported, they won't lose on providing resources for free, either.
Again, this is not a prediction, it is not a statement, it's just me putting my thoughts to words.
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roykirk
Kind of A Big Deal
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Post by roykirk on Apr 29, 2015 14:01:30 GMT
...As we all know, PC gaming is just a minority. The majority of players are on consoles, and today they can not get any mods at all. Of course this is where the money is... This appears to be the prevailing wisdom still these days, but I'm not so sure it's true any longer. However, that doesn't belie your main point. This definitely was a testing of the waters for Bethesda and Valve, and we'll see some kind of push in this direction come FO4. Whether it's console-only-paid mods or paid mods on PC as well, I'm not sure, but they're definitely headed this way.
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Post by Seyheb on Apr 29, 2015 15:55:02 GMT
I have been thinking so much on this, and I can't help but making a guess (not stating, not predicting, merely guessing) As we all know, PC gaming is just a minority. The majority of players are on consoles, and today they can not get any mods at all. Of course this is where the money is.
My guess:
They'll leave Skyrim alone - it's an old game, and it will be even older when Fallout 4 arrives. They did all this stuff with the paywall as a test and in order to ensure that any more acceptable solution they show up with later on will cause relief rather than a roar.
Fallout 4 will have a creation kit, we might even still get it for free.
Modding proceeds as normally, and mods are not being behind paywalls
Now, the beautiful thing from game devs perspective is that they can then monitor which mods are doing well and are popular AND BUGFREE. They just have to look at downloads, ratings and feedback.
These mods, the good ones that are already well supported by their authors and compatible with most stuff, I think will be ported to consoles. And Bethesda and the Valve will charge the console players for that they can now get PC content. Of course the modder will get financially compensated, with say 25 % of the price tag. If the mod uses resources from other mods, there will be an automatic split of money, provided that the resource is available on Steam. Once this is established, the upload form for mdos will include a section where the modder agrees that his content can be ported, which resources has been made and that he promises to support his mod.
PC-mods remains free, and a resource maker can, if he wish, state that his models must not be ported to consoles. Then the mod authors know this in advance and can choose whether or not he/she wants to use the resource. If the resources is allowed to be used, the resource maker will get an auto-income.
What have we got here? A win-win-situation? Yes, probably... Just think of it...
It's the devs who pick the best mods for porting. It's an honor for a modder to get a mod ported as it means it's a good mod. Buyers will know that this is a high functionality, well working mod, as it has been playtested (for free) by lots of PC-gamers for maybe months before it is for sale. I.e. no problems with refunding or bad mod support. PC-gamers will hardly be pissed off is modders are earning money for selling to console gamers. There is no reason for Beth and the Valve to charge PC-gamers for mods - the PC-gamers are actually acting like beta-testers; their playing and feedback will ensure that the product that is sold to console gamers is of good quality, and this will reduce the risk for problems. Other modders will hardly get pissed off if modders are earning money for selling to console gamers - next time they'll be the lucky ones. As the modding community and PC-gaming community is separated from the console community, there is a fair chance that modders will keep on sharing content and knowledge, and if resource-makers are compensated when their stuff is ported, they won't lose on providing resources for free, either.
Again, this is not a prediction, it is not a statement, it's just me putting my thoughts to words.
It's an interesting and plausible scenario. However I don't imagine Beth and Valve will give up on the idea of making money directly from modding on the PC just yet, and particularly so in the light of repots like that linked by roykirk. I've also seen reports that suggest the PC gaming sector is growing. I have a picture in my mind of a small Beth/Valve working-group sitting down right now, with a brief to analyse the results of this attempt and develop their next approach for the PC.
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Post by Falion on Apr 30, 2015 1:15:02 GMT
We can only hope, that Beth and Valve will go in the direction that Emma has stated. For sure they aren't going to totally give up on the idea of somehow profiting off of mods, in one form or another. Perhaps, it wouldn't be a bad idea, if you pasted this post where Beth and Valve would actually read it Emma, if you think it would do any good in leading them in that direction. It would be better than them trying as Seyheb mentions, in them going down the PC route as well.
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Post by jet4571 on Apr 30, 2015 2:26:40 GMT
There's one problem with Emma's scenario and that's Valve and the console makers do not have a working relationship. Valve tried to get on the Playstation 3 and of course Sony didn't like that too well because they weren't getting the cut of the sales they normally get and so they made the Playstation Store.
Bethesda deals with Sony and Microsoft in much the same way as they do with Valve but Valve is not included in their deals. So if this will include Valve and console sales then more likely it will be the Steam Box that is the console in question. Bethesda could very well also make deals with MS and Sony but if they did that our rights to the files will be even more eroded. But upside is they will curate the mods and make sure that copyrights are in order, they do have quality control unlike Valve.
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Post by Emma on Apr 30, 2015 10:27:56 GMT
Yes, I'm sure you have a very valid point there, Jet.
BEFORE YOU CONTINUE TO READ: PLEASE BE AWARE THAT MY STANDPOINT HASN'T CHANGED AT ALL SINCE MY INITIAL POST. THIS IS MORE LIKE A "IF THE WORST SHOULD HAPPEN, HOW CAN WE REDUCE DAMAGE..."-POST:
Actually, I woke up this morning and I guess I must have been dreaming about this all night or so... Anyway, my thoughts when I woke up today ended in this post at Bethesda's forum.
Thoughts?
(Again, I have no wish to put my work behind a pay-wall, but I can see that for a new generation of modders, modding is definitely heading in this direction, and the suggestion is more about damage-control than anything else)
EDIT: I have also edited my post on ES-boards to make it clearer that my viewpoint has in no way changed and that I am in no way pro paywalls.
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Post by Falion on Apr 30, 2015 11:13:01 GMT
The only observation I can make Emma, is this post doesn't point out your initial thoughts of the console versus PC for pay versus free mods. I thought this was very thought provoking and a way to possibly stem off any Valve / Beth possible PC Paywalls in the future. However, as Jet distinctly points out, such will be an issue that both Valve and Beth would have to address somehow, as this isn't anything the user base, either console or the PC community has any control over.
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Post by Dova on Apr 30, 2015 14:25:15 GMT
Last night, I decided to refresh my memory on a short story, "Who Moved My Cheese?" ( 32-page PDF provided by Washington State University) If you haven't read it, it's a very interesting read; if you have, it's worth re-reading. I haven't change my stance on this matter, but like Emma already stated, instead on keep contemplating how to keep the old cheese, I think we need to find the new cheese (new cheese doesn't mean I given up on the old cheese) and know what our fears are (and if they are magnified). I will let you know what my cheeses are, if they dawn on me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 17:18:19 GMT
Yes, I'm sure you have a very valid point there, Jet. BEFORE YOU CONTINUE TO READ: PLEASE BE AWARE THAT MY STANDPOINT HASN'T CHANGED AT ALL SINCE MY INITIAL POST. THIS IS MORE LIKE A "IF THE WORST SHOULD HAPPEN, HOW CAN WE REDUCE DAMAGE..."-POST:Actually, I woke up this morning and I guess I must have been dreaming about this all night or so... Anyway, my thoughts when I woke up today ended in this post at Bethesda's forum. Thoughts? (Again, I have no wish to put my work behind a pay-wall, but I can see that for a new generation of modders, modding is definitely heading in this direction, and the suggestion is more about damage-control than anything else) EDIT: I have also edited my post on ES-boards to make it clearer that my viewpoint has in no way changed and that I am in no way pro paywalls. Hmm... ok I'll play I don't get it really but I am interested in entertaining your thought; so why don't you poll your own play testing team and see if they like the idea of alpha and beta testing your work so you can then put it up for sale. That would be a good place to start and test your thesis. Now you may have such loyal fans that they may want you to have the money so the poll results may be skewed (not accurate) so we may have to pose the question in a larger forum and see what the masses think. In order to do this Emma, I think we need to shrink your idea into a smaller one or 2 sentence question. can you re-write your thought in 2 or 3 lines so that it is simpler to understand? ie. Question: "Would the community Beta Test my next companion mod so I could sell it on Steam?" or something like that... and then we can get very short answer like "yes because" or "no because"... What do you think?
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