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Post by jet4571 on Apr 28, 2015 5:30:33 GMT
I bought Skyrim on dvd, but I bought Morrowind and Oblivion on Steam... (I already had the (poorly) translated version of those two but I wanted them in original version.) So, it's my fault if mods are now for sale? It is the fault of anyone who pays for mods that have previously been free, whether existing mods or new ones. Once you begin to pay you set the precedent and there is no turning back. I still use my original GOTY edition of Morrowind, but have yet to find any non-Steam version of Skyrim. I occasionally follow links for "Skyrim DVD" which typically lead to a page on Amazon which depicts the jewel case and describes the game WITH NO MENTION OF STEAM ...but order that DVD and see what you get (I've heard from too many acrimonious buyers to even waste my time pursuing this any more). Stop wasting money trying to find what doesn't exist in a legal form. Bethesda never released a non steam version. The only non steam version is a pirated version, I am going to go out on a limb and just say "if you legally bought the game then downloaded a pirate copy is it pirating?". I am not going to say go ahead and do it or that I haven't because Ubisoft's draconian DRM made a game unplayable and I told them when they finally replied to the support ticket (they didn't think so since I wasn't banned and when they backpedaled and killed that DRM gave me the DLC as an apology). But that's something to think about.
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Post by loriel on Apr 28, 2015 7:05:06 GMT
I am going to go out on a limb and just say "if you legally bought the game then downloaded a pirate copy is it pirating?". An interesting question. "Pirate" is an ill-defined and emotionally-charged term, which shouldn't really be used here, but it seems to be normal practice so we are probably stuck with it. The other problem is the assumption that you bought the game - you didn't, you merely bought a licence to the game. So your rights depend on the terms of that licence (together with any other legal rights, which will depend on your jurisdiction). I believe that in some jurisdictions you have the right to make a copy, even if the licence forbids it, so in those cases, provided the "pirated" copy you download is identical to the copy or which you bought the licence, your actions should be legal. If the downloaded copy has been altered, typically be removing the DRM, then it's probable that your actions would be illegal. If we look at the question "Is it wrong ...?" (in the sense of ethics or morality) rather than "Is it illegal...?" then the answer is probably "No". If you have paid for it, you should have the right to use it. Loriel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 7:35:04 GMT
I am going to go out on a limb and just say "if you legally bought the game then downloaded a pirate copy is it pirating?". An interesting question. "Pirate" is an ill-defined and emotionally-charged term, which shouldn't really be used here, but it seems to be normal practice so we are probably stuck with it. The other problem is the assumption that you bought the game - you didn't, you merely bought a licence to the game. So your rights depend on the terms of that licence (together with any other legal rights, which will depend on your jurisdiction). I believe that in some jurisdictions you have the right to make a copy, even if the licence forbids it, so in those cases, provided the "pirated" copy you download is identical to the copy or which you bought the licence, your actions should be legal. If the downloaded copy has been altered, typically be removing the DRM, then it's probable that your actions would be illegal. If we look at the question "Is it wrong ...?" (in the sense of ethics or morality) rather than "Is it illegal...?" then the answer is probably "No". If you have paid for it, you should have the right to use it. Loriel I'm playing version 1.8 of Skyrim to which I downgraded due to the lip sync bug that version 1.9 introduced. I'm not even sure it's legal... I bought Skyrim on disc at launch.
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Post by Seyheb on Apr 28, 2015 7:49:54 GMT
WoW! I go to bed last night amd miss all the excitement; until this morning, that is. I wouldn't be in happy shock... I'd call it a strategical retreat, which means regrouping rather than anything else. I think this has all along been a preparation for the FO4 modding scenario, but I thought they just wanted us to get rid of the anger before FO4. Dova has had similar, but even darker and more indepth thoughts (and I think she has a very valid point in what she says). If I should make a guess on what will happen next: The Skyrim mods will never be for sale. With FO4, they will release a creation kit and allow free modding for PC. Then, they will *offer modders to port their work to the consoles*. The porting will be done by Bethesda/Steam, as as this includes a cost for them, they will charge a price for the console version of the mod. The modder will gain a small percent of the charged price, maybe 25 %, as a bonus because his work was allowed to be ported. Resources, then? Well, they can't have another fiasko similar to what happened with certain paywall-mods that were using content from other mods. So, maybe Beth/Steam contact some prominent resource-makers directly and offer them to sell resources through a special steam-store, so that they are free to use for console versions. By the time that TES6 is released, the pay-for-console-mods-system will be so established that it's hardly a problem anymore. ...just me guessing, of course... But I don't think the pay-wall will hit any of the existing TES-games again. It will be there, in revamped versions, for the upcoming games instead. I agree, this is merely a strategic retreat. They will be back as soon as they have licked their wounds and developed a new approach in the lead-up to the release of FO4 and TES VI. As for DRM, you can read more about what it means on Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_managementP.S. I think it's a little insincere of Bethesda to say that there's no DRM in Skyrim, bearing in mind Skyrim is tied to Steam.
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Post by jet4571 on Apr 28, 2015 10:30:35 GMT
I am not in agreement with buying a license for every bit of software. If it is a download or for many users sure I can deal with that, but if it is on a physical medium like a DVD for 1 user.. No you bought the DVD and everything on it goes with it. And the law agrees since no major publisher has been able to shut down Gamestop or any other second hand sales store and they have tried EULA or not.
If someone bought a legal copy and then downloaded a torrent version and kept the purchased copy it should be legal because there is no lost sales and nothing was stolen.
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Post by zedtsayid on Apr 28, 2015 13:09:38 GMT
Well this made the internet news this am. www.wired.com/2015/04/steam-skyrim-paid-mods/"Bethesda noted that only eight percent of Skyrim players have ever used a mod, and it wants that percentage to increase. “[Valve] presented data showing the effect paid user content has had on their games, their players, and their modders. All of it hugely positive. They showed, quite clearly, that allowing content creators to make money increased the quality and choice that players had.” Odd 99% of the gamers I know use mods.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 16:48:43 GMT
Odd 99% of the gamers I know use mods. And how many players do you know? About this 1 %, they mention, it's not clear if they count the console players, who cannot use mods.
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Post by zedtsayid on Apr 28, 2015 17:26:09 GMT
Odd 99% of the gamers I know use mods. And how many players do you know? About this 1 %, they mention, it's not clear if they count the console players, who cannot use mods. Well between Skyrim, World of Tanks and Eve Online about 200.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 17:59:18 GMT
And how many players do you know? About this 1 %, they mention, it's not clear if they count the console players, who cannot use mods. Well between Skyrim, World of Tanks and Eve Online about 200. 200 among several dozen of millions...
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Post by Jac on Apr 28, 2015 18:13:43 GMT
I still use my original GOTY edition of Morrowind, but have yet to find any non-Steam version of Skyrim. I occasionally follow links for "Skyrim DVD" which typically lead to a page on Amazon which depicts the jewel case and describes the game WITH NO MENTION OF STEAM ...but order that DVD and see what you get (I've heard from too many acrimonious buyers to even waste my time pursuing this any more). Skyrim will always require Steam, it's the check Bethesda uses to determine if your copy is a legal purchase or a hacked one. Think of Steam as a digital CD check. The only way you'll get a non-Steam version is if you use one that has the Steam requirement removed via a hack.
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Post by jgf on Apr 28, 2015 18:20:41 GMT
...The only non steam version is a pirated version, I am going to go out on a limb and just say "if you legally bought the game then downloaded a pirate copy is it pirating?". I am not going to say go ahead and do it or that I haven't because Ubisoft's draconian DRM made a game unplayable and I told them when they finally replied to the support ticket (they didn't think so since I wasn't banned and when they backpedaled and killed that DRM gave me the DLC as an apology). But that's something to think about. I am well aware of the various hacked versions of Skyrim available; and, in a way, I do not blame people for using them. Not because of my distaste for Steam itself (well documented here and elsewhere) but for their totally unacceptable practice of marketing their corrupt version of Skyrim (and possibly other titles) on DVD on retail sites such as Amazon with no mention whatsoever that you are getting the Steam version. Why this doesn't constitute false advertising is beyond me. On one occasion I have resorted to a hacked copy of a game, but only after my valid purchased copy would not function reliably and the developer merely passed the buck to the Starfarce people who, in the course of a dozen emails, offered no assistance beyond "download the newest drivers". They had my money and I had a product which didn't work; at that point I felt anything I did to correct that situation was valid. They were the pirates, not me. As for UbiSoft, their recent DRM is so onerous they have literally shot themselves in the foot. I looked forward to Silent Hunter V ...til I read the reviews and the game forums. I wonder how many sales they have lost from such overblown demands.
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Post by jgf on Apr 28, 2015 18:29:47 GMT
...Skyrim will always require Steam, it's the check Bethesda uses to determine if your copy is a legal purchase or a hacked one. Think of Steam as a digital CD check. The only way you'll get a non-Steam version is if you use one that has the Steam requirement removed via a hack. That is well known. And the reason I still do not have Skyrim. A few months after its release I wrote Bethesda berating this decision; I told them I would gladly pay $50 for a "real" version of the game - on disc, which I could install and play on a computer that wasn't even online - but would not give 50 cents for their Steam atrocity. By comparison I wrote and lauded Runic Games for making Torchlight II available as a real version as well as a Steam version.
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Post by zedtsayid on Apr 28, 2015 18:32:44 GMT
lulz ladyonthemoon, statistical analysis often uses smaller samples to represent trends in the larger community. So the 200 people I know, all PC players, can be used as a research group. I did study Community Planning and have my research certification to study humans. Saddly only in an ethical manner. My point is actually that statistics which Steam and Bethesda were using in their statements can be presented to show desired results dependent upon the criteria set for the analysis. Verification of their data would be needed to prove the statistics. I love peer review.
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Post by jgf on Apr 28, 2015 19:20:12 GMT
...So you're accusing me of buying mods now? I would never buy a mod; I make mods myself and I always push people into modding rather than using mods made by others. Chose another victim for yourself, will you. I accused you of nothing. I merely made a comment.
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roykirk
Kind of A Big Deal
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Post by roykirk on Apr 28, 2015 20:11:29 GMT
These last few days of heavily-contentious debate over this issue on other forums (notably, Reddit) should die down now that Valve and Bethesda have pulled back...for now. But we need to be vigilant regarding their future plans. I have no faith that they've given up on this method of more monetization, and FO4 is a big candidate for them trying again, as was mentioned earlier in this thread.
However, to find a bit of silver lining in all of this, the whole issue has made me more aware of how we've always been able to donate to a mod on the Nexus, if the creator makes that option available, so we can show our support with money in a way that's not hiding anything behind a paywall and seems to be good for both modders and those who use their mods.
I was looking for such an option for Vilja in Skyrim, my desert island mod, but didn't see one. Emma, do you not feel that donation is not a good option either, or do you wish players to contribute in different ways to support you and the other members of the creative team who work so hard on Vilja?
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