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Post by thenryb on Apr 26, 2015 22:16:59 GMT
I have also been following the discussion on the Bethesda forum and have listened to a couple of speeches by Gopher weighing in on the issue. My concern is precisely that expressed so concisely by Emma, above. This reminds me of the stir which arose over the lame endings choices which occurred when Mass Effect 3 was released. The entire Bioware community rose up in arms about that and I still remember the crestfallen look on the then Bioware president's face after the fan reaction. A friend and I remarked then that under EA's ownership, Bioware was really trying to get in the multiplayer market and that more money can be made with that sort of platform with its potential for paid "subscriptions" than by just selling a single player game with a few DLC's. Indeed, apart from Bethesda, I am not aware of any company which makes the only kind of game I will play anymore-the single player, open world game with some sort of story line (albeit a lousy one if written by Bethesda). Mods which much be purchased is just a cheap method of increasing revenues over and above that which can be made just by selling a game and a couple of DLC's and can legitimately be viewed as inevitable. What bothers me as much as Bethesda's heavy handed and obtuse way of introducing the concept is the reaction of many of the "entitled Nexus brats" toward some of the mod makers who were recruited. Some of those people have made great contributions to the community over the years. Who can blame contributors like Arthmoor, who is unemployed and broke (his own words) from being enticed to make a little money from his work. Dova mentioned the need to come together as a community. We should not attack mod makers who find themselves in need of money in order to be able to continue a hobby as time consuming as mod making. Some artists need to sell a painting or two in order to eat.
Edit: I was going to also say that I have not seen any new arguments for a long time-mainly a rehash of stuff already said. And then I looked at my own post-which says nothing new:)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 4:36:19 GMT
Hi Emma, After reading your post over at Bethesda forums I felt compelled to come back and say thank you for that. There is no question that some time during the Oblivion craze that the modding community changed for the worse. We both remember why Wrye left modding. I can only imagine what he is thinking now. The new generation of Skyrim modders and users are so rude... spoiled, they have no manners. i can't tell you how many times I saw them making fun of you and your voice... it always made me so angry. I have said it in my PiNK PUMPKiN thread here that I would never have even played Oblivion if it wasn't for your digital baby Vilja. The only thing that got me through all of Skyrims constant crashes was Vilja's singing heheheeh ;D This is not only the end of free mods... but the end of free modding. The CS/CK will either be sold seperately or more likely be licensed out or sold as an online service like Microsoft office. You will pay as you go and it will never be downloaded onto your computer.I picture that you would only be able to use it through Steam. This seems to have been very well thought out and it is my belief that as soon as the modder asked for donations, Bethesda was put in a corner and they had to Protect their product, investors, employees and their families. They gave us the CS in Morrowind for free. They trusted us with it and how did we pay them back? By declaring our ownership of our mods and demanding we get paid for them. How ridiculous. I predicted this would happen on many forums and was always attacked by the trolls. The funny thing is that I have all the posts to prove it and I just wrote a blog piece over at Deadly Stream 3 weeks ago about the future of modding and how it would turn into a pay system. You can read my prediction here --> deadlystream.com/forum/blog/36/entry-88-transcending-the-future/It is a sad thing to see the one you love destroy themselves and that is what we are all witnessing... You know how I feel about you <333 Your the best and thanks for being a beacon of white light in these dark times. Cheers and BIG hello to graykin and blockhead. Many blessing to all of you
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Post by jet4571 on Apr 27, 2015 4:54:10 GMT
Heya Pink Piper. Missed you being here.
Just for a laugh... I have no idea what this guy is really saying but with his laughter and the subtitles I couldn't help but laugh too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 7:01:33 GMT
Hi Emma, I'm glad my small words inspired you. Let's keep up the good work and hold high the banner of freedom! (Pfff... )
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Post by Emma on Apr 27, 2015 9:43:43 GMT
Those words have been my inspiration since 2003 or 2004, Ladyonthemoon, and I'm so glad that the spirit is still living on for some of us. I think you are too new in the community to have talked to Grumpy, but his view on modding has always been a beacon for me. In this era of monetarizing mods, maybe we should also spend a few minutes reading Wrye's thoughts on Cathedral version Parlor view on modding, a view also totally built on the idea that you have to share knowledge in order to expand and move forward. EDIT: Of course it doesn't really matter who originally stated that modding should be about sharing, but as things are unfolding with modders selling their work for money, I think there is a point in pointing out that the *sharing* perspective is what has been a cornerstone this community for 13 years!
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Post by Emma on Apr 27, 2015 10:26:43 GMT
Hi Emma, After reading your post over at Bethesda forums I felt compelled to come back and say thank you for that. There is no question that some time during the Oblivion craze that the modding community changed for the worse. We both remember why Wrye left modding. I can only imagine what he is thinking now. The new generation of Skyrim modders and users are so rude... spoiled, they have no manners. i can't tell you how many times I saw them making fun of you and your voice... it always made me so angry. I have said it in my PiNK PUMPKiN thread here that I would never have even played Oblivion if it wasn't for your digital baby Vilja. The only thing that got me through all of Skyrims constant crashes was Vilja's singing heheheeh ;D This is not only the end of free mods... but the end of free modding. The CS/CK will either be sold seperately or more likely be licensed out or sold as an online service like Microsoft office. You will pay as you go and it will never be downloaded onto your computer.I picture that you would only be able to use it through Steam. This seems to have been very well thought out and it is my belief that as soon as the modder asked for donations, Bethesda was put in a corner and they had to Protect their product, investors, employees and their families. They gave us the CS in Morrowind for free. They trusted us with it and how did we pay them back? By declaring our ownership of our mods and demanding we get paid for them. How ridiculous. I predicted this would happen on many forums and was always attacked by the trolls. The funny thing is that I have all the posts to prove it and I just wrote a blog piece over at Deadly Stream 3 weeks ago about the future of modding and how it would turn into a pay system. You can read my prediction here --> deadlystream.com/forum/blog/36/entry-88-transcending-the-future/It is a sad thing to see the one you love destroy themselves and that is what we are all witnessing... You know how I feel about you <333 Your the best and thanks for being a beacon of white light in these dark times. Cheers and BIG hello to graykin and blockhead. Many blessing to all of you Sweetie, welcome back! You have been missed! I hope that you will continue to come here!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 12:46:56 GMT
Those words have been my inspiration since 2003 or 2004, Ladyonthemoon, and I'm so glad that the spirit is still living on for some of us. I think you are too new in the community to have talked to Grumpy, but his view on modding has always been a beacon for me. ... Well, I didn't need to talk to Grumpy to feel what modding was about: it was just obvious to me. If you have, even from a distance, followed the conversations on the Bethsoft forums, you have noticed that this kind of ideas (voluntary service, sharing) are completely foreign to some people, sadly. We are, well at least I am, a dinosaur, but I like it that way.
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Post by Emma on Apr 27, 2015 15:45:30 GMT
Welcome to the dinosaur club
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Post by Emma on Apr 27, 2015 16:45:26 GMT
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times," and Now is such a time for the modding community. As we all have a few days to absorb the facts and think about the situation, it should already become crystal clear that the Skyrim community is the guinea pig to test the waters for the paid-for-mod scheme in future games. What this also means is, the future generation of games and modding depends on us, US right here right now, to defend the art of modding. The art of modding. Regardless of what belief we are supporting, we all love modding. Whether you are a modder or a mod user, there was someone, somewhere along the way, who taught you how to install a mod, how to optimize the game, how to sort load order, how to script, model, texture, animate, etc., and give you the satisfaction on expanding the gameplay, or feeling accomplished because you made a change. <snip> This is certainly a big talk coming from someone who doesn't release mods, but I hope you will find something I have said agreeable. My only goal is to spark new trends of critical thinking, and let the ideas circulate the community before the situation gets worse. I am pasting this into several places: here, here, here, here, and here. Dova, one very good place to re-post your excellent post would be here: tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/topic/7516-rip-spirit-of-modding/TESA has been a vital meeting point for modders since back in the Oblivion days, and I feel it is a place for more indepth discussions than many other places. I'm going to re-post my post there, too.
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Post by jgf on Apr 27, 2015 17:50:56 GMT
Regarding Bethesda getting in bed with Steam/Valve, and the ensuing backlash ...So what? That backlash was meaningless. Because everyone complaining was still hypocritically buying Steam products. Steam doesn't care if the entire gaming community believes them to be an incestuous band of coprophagic imbeciles as long as that community continues purchasing their products. That gaming community actually created Steam and, by acquiescence, its policies.
Had this community stood up en masse to Steam at their inception and said, "We want the games but not the Steam baggage that comes with them", things would be different today. But it is now too late.
I have never purchased anything from Steam and, unless they change their policies (not likely), never will. So I feel little sympathy for those now decrying their actions; this is an exemplar of the old adage "you've made your bed, now lie in it".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 18:35:51 GMT
Regarding Bethesda getting in bed with Steam/Valve, and the ensuing backlash ...So what? That backlash was meaningless. Because everyone complaining was still hypocritically buying Steam products. Steam doesn't care if the entire gaming community believes them to be an incestuous band of coprophagic imbeciles as long as that community continues purchasing their products. That gaming community actually created Steam and, by acquiescence, its policies. Had this community stood up en masse to Steam at their inception and said, "We want the games but not the Steam baggage that comes with them", things would be different today. But it is now too late. I have never purchased anything from Steam and, unless they change their policies (not likely), never will. So I feel little sympathy for those now decrying their actions; this is an exemplar of the old adage "you've made your bed, now lie in it". I bought Skyrim on dvd, but I bought Morrowind and Oblivion on Steam... (I already had the (poorly) translated version of those two but I wanted them in original version.) So, it's my fault if mods are now for sale?
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Post by thenryb on Apr 27, 2015 20:27:52 GMT
Regarding Bethesda getting in bed with Steam/Valve, and the ensuing backlash ...So what? That backlash was meaningless. Because everyone complaining was still hypocritically buying Steam products. Steam doesn't care if the entire gaming community believes them to be an incestuous band of coprophagic imbeciles as long as that community continues purchasing their products. That gaming community actually created Steam and, by acquiescence, its policies. Had this community stood up en masse to Steam at their inception and said, "We want the games but not the Steam baggage that comes with them", things would be different today. But it is now too late. I have never purchased anything from Steam and, unless they change their policies (not likely), never will. So I feel little sympathy for those now decrying their actions; this is an exemplar of the old adage "you've made your bed, now lie in it". I bought Skyrim on dvd, but I bought Morrowind and Oblivion on Steam... (I already had the (poorly) translated version of those two but I wanted them in original version.) So, it's my fault if mods are now for sale? Of course not. The "gaming community", that fluid batch of people of all ages from all over the world has never stood up "en masse" about anything for long. If a game looks good, they buy it and agree to whatever draconian terms are contained in those absurd TOS agreements without reading them. That is the default.
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Post by Dova on Apr 27, 2015 20:30:41 GMT
Pointing fingers isn't going to help. Please keep discussion back to the immediate topic.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 23:37:29 GMT
Hi Emma, After reading your post over at Bethesda forums I felt compelled to come back and say thank you for that. There is no question that some time during the Oblivion craze that the modding community changed for the worse. We both remember why Wrye left modding. I can only imagine what he is thinking now. The new generation of Skyrim modders and users are so rude... spoiled, they have no manners. i can't tell you how many times I saw them making fun of you and your voice... it always made me so angry. I have said it in my PiNK PUMPKiN thread here that I would never have even played Oblivion if it wasn't for your digital baby Vilja. The only thing that got me through all of Skyrims constant crashes was Vilja's singing heheheeh ;D This is not only the end of free mods... but the end of free modding. The CS/CK will either be sold seperately or more likely be licensed out or sold as an online service like Microsoft office. You will pay as you go and it will never be downloaded onto your computer.I picture that you would only be able to use it through Steam. This seems to have been very well thought out and it is my belief that as soon as the modder asked for donations, Bethesda was put in a corner and they had to Protect their product, investors, employees and their families. They gave us the CS in Morrowind for free. They trusted us with it and how did we pay them back? By declaring our ownership of our mods and demanding we get paid for them. How ridiculous. I predicted this would happen on many forums and was always attacked by the trolls. The funny thing is that I have all the posts to prove it and I just wrote a blog piece over at Deadly Stream 3 weeks ago about the future of modding and how it would turn into a pay system. You can read my prediction here --> deadlystream.com/forum/blog/36/entry-88-transcending-the-future/It is a sad thing to see the one you love destroy themselves and that is what we are all witnessing... You know how I feel about you <333 Your the best and thanks for being a beacon of white light in these dark times. Cheers and BIG hello to graykin and blockhead. Many blessing to all of you Sweetie, welcome back! You have been missed! I hope that you will continue to come here! Smoochies & huggies to you too Emma. I am in the middle of writing a new blog entry regarding this fiasco titled , "the Devil Wears Prada" (a continuation of my Transcending the future blog about the future of modding which was written almost 2 months ago,) when someone twittered me this. It looks as if Bethesda finally addressed the public. I have read it and I disagree with their main point which is that pay for mods will make modding better. Why? Because that was all based after data gathered from other modding communities. Bethesda had the BEST modding community better than all the rest combined. Why fix something that isn't broken? That is what I am confused about... they could not have made this decision and not have looked at the potential revenue stream as well. The potential profits must have been huge for them to risk this. Corporations love POTENTIAL PROFITS Amazon in the USA has neverr posted any profits yet their stock is selling sky high based on potential profits. The market loves it! Also this line, "Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one." really irks me. A large portion of the Skyrim audience plays on a platform that mods were not available like Xbox. So does this mean that mods uploaded on Steam will be able to be downloaded to Xbox players? No so this doesn't make sense to me but I could be wrong here because I never owned an Xbox. Can Xbox users download mods from Steam? I don't blame them for going down this route and the 25/75% split always made sense to me. I learned when I researched it that it was all industry standards and even before i researched it I thought that 25% was actually very good. Can't understand why modders would complain about that only that those few were just children and unaware how the world actually works and then other caught onto that without actually think about it. If you read my blog piece, " Transcending the Future; The history of community forums, the birth internet poker and the future of modding." I said that very few, less than 1% of modders would ever make money from modding. Similar to like children playing sports, how many will become professional athletes? Very few. Still I just don't like the smell of it all but without a doubt it is here to stay unless people stop buying them and games from Steam and that is very unlikely to happen... but as I am proud to point out as often as I can; I am only right 51% of the time Can anyone explain to me what DRM is and why that is playing a part in this? I am researching this right now so please if you can provide links when you are explaining it and/or agueuing you position for or against it. I like to understand both sides of an issue. In fact, I usually spend more time researching the side I disagree with so I can better understand the side I support Cheers
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Post by Emma on Apr 27, 2015 23:46:33 GMT
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