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Post by loriel on May 9, 2015 21:03:13 GMT
The main priority for Zenimax is the well-being of its investors. It's a private company, so the relationship between investors and senior management and investors is going to be close. Well-being of Modders is going to be low on the list of priorities, except for the secondary effect on Bethesda's profits - hence the short-term attraction of increased income from paid mods. If you consider paid modding to be evil, then I think there are probably only two viable futures: 1) Convince Bethesda it's the wrong course for their future prosperity - but from their perspective a tiny community of paid modders is probably better than a huge unpaid community 2) Find a modding platform outside the Bethesda empire - also challenging, as there are few major titles which are modder-friendly. But perhaps something outside the AAA titles, like Emma's suggestion of Witanlore. Going somewhat off-topic, the founder of Bethesda and co-founder of Zenimax was Christopher Weaver, who has an interesting CV, combining academic careers in media and science with software development, and even acting as a volunteer air-ambulance pilot. Current management/owners look less interesting. Loriel
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 21:08:57 GMT
So a months ago I was told by someone from a Fallout NV private forum. it was right after I wrote my blog where I predicted that people would sell their mods in the future. This person read my blog and reached out to me and told me that Betheasda invited him and his group to make a DLC type mod to sell for them. He also said that another forum was contacted as well. This one. So this is not over. This is where Bethesda wants to go. Why? I can only surmise that they think it is cheaper (less employee salary and taxes) to go this route. Thoughts... You have a particular reason to believe them? This doesn't make any sense.
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Post by jet4571 on May 9, 2015 21:51:40 GMT
- Jet has once mentioned about ad revenues without the users paying anything. I really don't think the amount of ad revenues is attractive enough for the companies to let go of paid mods, nor enough to allow the mod authors who needs the money to survive. I think it's fair to assume youtube is the gold standard of really high ad revenues, and yet if you take a look at Gopher's Patreon, he admits that youtube doesn't earn him enough money to sustain his family consistently, and I don't think he's exaggerating. Well there is one huge issue with paid mods for a TES or Fallout type game That's not mentioned. They are single player games. The reason paid for mods works successfully for the three games Valve sells mods for is because those games are free to play competitive multiplayer. Players of those types of games want to be the envy of everyone around by having the best k/d ratio and other stats as well as the way their character looks, forking out $20 for an outfit set in a f2p game is common, buying consumables for $5 is common. It's free to play and multiplayer, having your character look different than everyone else's is important to players who play those types of games. Single player games? not so much an importance but a "its nice to have a unique outfit.". There's no drive to make your character look unique compared to other players because no other player can see it. Can single player mods make enough for a person to sustain a family comfortably? I really don't think so. Maybe they make high sales when released Then how long will those high sales continue? We all know that downloads of free mods taper off rather quickly and the download numbers are inflated by multiple downloads from the same people. Could a mod have generated over the course of a month the same sales as the first few days? No I don't believe so. Then to make modding make as much as an income from a job would mean you would have to pump out mods on a regular basis and of high enough quality so you have a reputation of making good mods and thus sacrificing updating mods to do so. That's when the overall quality of the paid mods starts to decline because the authors want to make money and constantly updating one mod isn't going to do that it's not pay per download, it's buy it and have permanent access including updates. Then to further hurt sales wait until the shovelware hits the workshop. Same people making Greenlight and Early access games will start making mods without a single care for quality. Now the great mods are buried under a mountain of alpha stage mods that shouldn't even be released as a free mod. Your great mods sales suffer from this and the consumers will see the paid mods the same way they see Greenlight and Early Access 99% trash and not worth wading through it to find a good one. Mod authors will learn to abandon a released mod and jump onto a new one rather quick so they can continue to make money from their work, overall quality of mods decline from that reason. Notoriously bad game companies will join in making mods producing mountains of junk to wade through. overall quality of mods decline from that reason. Decline of quality mods creates fewer customers wading through the bad to find the good and already far fewer customers than free mods has because there is far less people available who are willing to purchase mods. I would hazard to bet that after 6 months sales are only profitable for Valve and Bethesda because they take from all and even one sale only on a shovelware broken mod adds to that pool but for the authors they might make enough to go to the movies. Now lets play with something else here, how about game breaking mods and the 24 hour refund time. If the mods script that will cause savegame bloat kicks in after 24 hours of playing and it borks all saves after that. The author has abandoned it to make a new mod for the initial sales. How many customers who got screwed will return to the workshop to buy mods after? Those situations will happen and it will create a bad reputation for the paid mod workshop. The bad reputation will cost sales. Will paid mods for single player games make an income for modders that can replace a full time job? No I don't believe for one second they can. A supplemental income will be all they can do and ads would most likely make just as much and over the long term even more because every update that someone already uses you mod downloads is the same as someone new coming along.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 22:24:49 GMT
You have a particular reason to believe them? This doesn't make any sense. Of course I believe them. i was having in depth conversations with them about the community and the status of free modding. Actually , now that I think about it... it is all very freaky. At first I didn't really give it too much thought. I thought the idea was interesting but didn't think twice about it... but now it all makes sense. The project leader (on one of them) told me in a PM that they were contacted by Bethesda and that they would choose one of the two projects to put up for sale as a DLC. I have to say that my contact is not from the site I posted. I was told by my contact that the site I linked was their competition. As far as my contact and their website I am hesitant to link that right now... and I may not ever. They were nice enough to tell me about it. Why doesn't it make sense to you? A company like Beth would do that and nobody would know about it? Not a chance. If someone told you about that, and presuming that it's true, it means that this "competition" wasn't that secret and it would be everywhere on the web by now. Are your contacts even sure that it was Bethesda that contacted them, that it was not a prank? Talking about Bethesda, has anybody managed to connect to their forums lately? forums.bethsoft.com/forum/
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Post by loriel on May 9, 2015 22:38:28 GMT
Looks like forums.bethsoft.com/ will work - I'm a very rare visitor there, so I don't know if that's the usual address. Loriel
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 23:14:36 GMT
Looks like forums.bethsoft.com/ will work - I'm a very rare visitor there, so I don't know if that's the usual address. Loriel Doesn't work for me. Dammit, it's happening again!
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 6:04:17 GMT
From Charon to me in a PM; Something interesting posted by Chesko who is back to modding again is that apparently Beth is considering a Patreon system.
If this is true then I can only shake my head... this is worse than a Paywall. It is absolute ridiculous. If they do this then they might as well sell mods.
Does anyone know this Chesko and can this be confirmed?
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Post by Seyheb on May 10, 2015 6:51:56 GMT
This is an extract from Chesko's "I have returned" statement on the Bethesda forums. The edit is his. However the statement was posted ten days ago. You can read the whole statement HEREI looked around to see if there has been any update, but I haven't seen one other than the edit above. P.S. I haven't been experiencing any problems in accessing the Beth forums.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 7:39:29 GMT
They sound so desperate to monetize modding... they just can't seem to leave well enough alone... the Patreon system is like leeches... it is just so scummy. If Bethesda is truly considering this then there is seriously something wrong with the company. I would consider the company sick and in need of medical treatment.
The younger generation really wants this system... they want to pay for mods.
At this point in time, if this is true and someone else can confirm that Bethesda is considering a Patreon system, it becomes a major turn off. I am so disappointed by this news that I don't even care any more. if this is true then my previous post of a "Poison Pill" is actually true. They are trying to change the culture one step at a time.
I am going to remove skyrim from my SSD right now and go try OpenMW. As I understand it, it is not associated with Bethesda and right now Bethesda is acting perverse and misguided. They are not in line with principles and values. The company is now just a turn off and I am finished discussing this nonsense any further.
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Post by Seyheb on May 10, 2015 9:29:25 GMT
Chesko says only that it was "implied", which is open to interpretation. I have spent the last hour going through Bethesda's, Valve's and Steam blogs and various announcements and I haven't found a reference to this so far. Until one is found, this remains unconfirmed.
Bethesda hasn't added to its blogs since the blog about ending paid modding in "Why We Gave It A Shot". In that they said "there are other ways of supporting modders, through donations and other options" which leaves open what those "other options" might be, but they do not say. I didn't see anything in their older blogs either.
The Valve and Steam blogs and their other official posts are more difficult to wade through and they don't seem to keep all of their older ones, but I haven't been able to find anything there that refers to this either.
I have to go out now, but I may take another look when I get back.
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Post by jet4571 on May 10, 2015 9:45:14 GMT
From Charon to me in a PM; Something interesting posted by Chesko who is back to modding again is that apparently Beth is considering a Patreon system. If this is true then I can only shake my head... this is worse than a Paywall. It is absolute ridiculous. If they do this then they might as well sell mods. Does anyone know this Chesko and can this be confirmed? I have to disagree on the Patreon being worse than paid mods. I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement! Patreon is far better than paid mods because it is 100% voluntary. If the author produces poop in a waffle cone made from his own belly button scrapings he will have nobody donating to his Patreon, If the author produces Vilja quality goodness he/she may get enough patrons to quit his/her day job and focus on the mod. Paid mods... pump one out a week and forget about them once they are released and earn not a penny but make many of those pennies through shear volume of poop. Patreon requires focus in the product to keep the patrons happy, if you deviate and piss them off.. there goes the patrons. Basic modding? You can make a texture one day then a quest the next and neither work and could make money but it is not long term money like a Patreon is. Sorry P!nk but I believe your view of Patreon is completely wrong. It is voluntary to join it and make donations not mandatory. *Edit The biggest thing you are missing about patreon, Bethesda and Valve cannot touch it if the author does the right thing and not mention any games. "Send me money and I can keep making what I am making." Beth cannot claim that.
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Post by amgepo on May 10, 2015 11:48:39 GMT
They sound so desperate to monetize modding... they just can't seem to leave well enough alone... the Patreon system is like leeches... it is just so scummy. If Bethesda is truly considering this then there is seriously something wrong with the company. I would consider the company sick and in need of medical treatment. The younger generation really wants this system... they want to pay for mods. At this point in time, if this is true and someone else can confirm that Bethesda is considering a Patreon system, it becomes a major turn off. I am so disappointed by this news that I don't even care any more. if this is true then my previous post of a "Poison Pill" is actually true. They are trying to change the culture one step at a time. I am going to remove skyrim from my SSD right now and go try OpenMW. As I understand it, it is not associated with Bethesda and right now Bethesda is acting perverse and misguided. They are not in line with principles and values. The company is now just a turn off and I am finished discussing this nonsense any further. Not very familiar with patreon myself, so, I assume what freaked you out is Bethesda not even trying to make money on this. As a prove that their gain is in another place i.e destroying the comunity? If so, playing as devil's advocate, maybe they are so desperatelly concerned about other companies taking the modding comunity from them that they are trying to bribe it to remain with TES/FO. Not very plausible, but not 100% impossible (maybe 97% impossible) ). There's also the possibility of them having used in the conversation with Chesko, as a mean to convince him they were considering different possibilities for rewarding modders. Something like "we pondered on how to allow modders to get a well earned reward. Things like patreon and MCgufffin(TM) crossed our minds and we finally decided to try this new paywall system and you are one of the lucky modders we selected for trying it the first" Even if they are indeed trying to get rid of us (something that I have been suspected for some years. They surelly want to do this in a way that won't damage their own reputation. It's our task as costumers, to make that reputation lost unavoidable, in order to avoid such move. Ensuring the focus is on Zenimax, by the way. But there is nothing for sure. Right now we have only conjectures.
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Post by Wolf on May 10, 2015 12:13:47 GMT
I have been brainstorming a bit (again my personal fifty cents). Apologies in advance if my thoughts are too naive . (And I am NOT from Bethesda!!!)
1. The demands of us people in no matter of aspect in life have increased enormously in the last years. I can feel it even in myself. More quantity and quality in products and more safety in life have led to raised expectations and the illusion that all what we have got now is natural and god given. If our expectations are not met, we are getting unsatisfied, criticizing and if we are lacking self-control it ends up by attacking the ones who are providing us with products and services.
That’s what I have to face in real life and that’s what I can see with outrageous posts in the mod threats, so it must be true.
The fun and dedication to offer something to the public for free is about to vanish. And that’s also the reason why modders have stopped modding over the last years. Why should one provide something for free if there are impudent complaints and stubborn demands?
2. We have received a number of really well done games over the last years, that were entertaining, immersive, helped us over our lonely times, created a community and kept this community alive over years. Those games have to be paid for and their prices adapt to the rule of economy that is the balance between the interests which results in the end in the best possible profit for the user and the lowest possible price for the user.
3. Still marketing finds its ways to increase profit by arising demands and greed. This is done for example by only providing basic features and then charging for every add-on. Still the basic feature must have a good quality. Otherwise it won’t sell. At least in the case of game producers add-ons are at the moment still either real game extensions, representing new game worlds and as such a real value, or only cosmetic additions, so that the gameplay for everyone is guaranteed to be the same. This is of course most important for MMOs. Despite the social gap between can-afford and can-not-afford, as it is in real life, this tactic has been introduced more and more into the games. This means the one who dresses in Armani in real life will have the an utterly fancy armor, the one who drives a big SUV in real life will have a fiery horse while the others get the C & A outfit with the same armor rating and keep using their leather-sole-stallions. Of course we dislike this as we do it in real life.
4. Bethesda grants us the right to modify their game. This is still rather unusual in game industry and must be considered a sign that they want this symbiosis. Each party gains and has advantages from this. And the gamers are having the most profit in the end.
5. The whole system of modding is based on the fact that Bethesda has prohibited selling mods. Exchanging resources, ideas and tweaks in the modder’s community simply need permissions without any commercial shambles.
In the case of paid mods Bethesda is actually acting against her own EULA and TOSes if it is not Bethesda herself who sells the mods. But in this case these mods have to be labelled as DLCs in the courtesy and liability of Bethesda.
My question is now: Who is anyway supposed to be the legal person who sells a paid mod and takes the responsibility and liability? As Bethesda already owns every mod that was created by the use of the CK, it only can be Bethesda. As soon as paid mods were put on the Steam Workshop I’m rather sure Bethesda had to realize that besides the community’s uproar there was no way to ensure the legality concerning copyrights because it is illegal to sell something that relies on permissions for the use of resources that are only valid with non-commercial use. Whether Bethesda had the best intentions towards modders making themselves an income or whether it was rather more the idea to increase the own profit, the idea was put in action too prematurely and simply was bound to crash without legal precautions.
6. If I may, I’d like to remind of 1.. Remember it is not natural that we are allowed to mod and use mods of such an extent preexisting worldspace as the TES world although we might have been accustomed to this over the years. I wonder when in the future there will be an actually finished and playable independent community made game for free that can compare to a commercial game. Perhaps there will be something as pioneering as Wikipedia sometimes. So far the modding community has returned the favor and provided ideas, gaming contents and new customers for Bethesda. Some may see this as acting as guinea pigs, some may cherish the thought to be part of game-development that leads to games that we really want to play. This of course included hearty criticism.
As the modding world is back again to more or less harmony, maybe we should enjoy modding again, creating again something for others that most of them are able to appreciate, or just play our games and enjoy the mods that others have made for us.
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Post by Emma on May 10, 2015 14:39:05 GMT
They sound so desperate to monetize modding... they just can't seem to leave well enough alone... the Patreon system is like leeches... it is just so scummy. If Bethesda is truly considering this then there is seriously something wrong with the company. I would consider the company sick and in need of medical treatment. Hmm.. I think this must be a misunderstanding. Chesko is not saying that *Bethesda* is asking for support through a Patreon system (at least it's not how I interpret it). What he says (as far as I can interpret) is that Bethesda is about to accept that *modders* can ask for support through a patreon system. I am no expert in patreon system, but from what I understand, it means that a modder or a group of modders that are for instance working on a large mod could ask for support from the community; that players can sign up to pay them say a dollar per month, which might allow the modders to buy let's say a new microphone for recording or a better program for modelling. The mod, once it is finished, will still be free, but maybe the patreons have some kind of extra "reward", perhaps npcs or buildings are named after them. From what I understand, there is no harm in this, not for anyone, as it is completely volontary, both for modders to use and for players to decide if a project is so interesting for them that they feel they want to support the modder(s). As a modder, I would personally find it stressful; if players were giving me patroen support to work on a mod; I would feel a pressure that probably would remove the joy of working on it. But, that is enterily my own preference; if I was in need of money and could choose between asking for patreon support or give up modding and spend my evenings on extra-work for money, then patreonage would probably have been an interesting alternative. I don't think it's likely, though, that modders would earn very much money on this system.
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Post by Wolf on May 10, 2015 15:05:52 GMT
Why should there be a need for the Patreon system if there are donations? The Patreon system seems to be only another platform plugged between the spender and the receiver that needs financial maintainance itself. It rather sounds like PayPal gets its share and the Patreon system gets its share before the remaining rest arrives at the artist.
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