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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 18:47:35 GMT
I am happy to hear that. I never heard about this patreon.com but I am not sure that any other group woul let themselves be ruled and governed by this organization... and I now of another website that instead of the patrweon system theuse a voting system which is basically a popularity contest. If you don't get the votes then you don't get the mods. It is happening right now at one of the largest FALLOUT modding websites. Although there are free mods too there.
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Post by loriel on May 10, 2015 19:02:30 GMT
In the case of paid mods Bethesda is actually acting against her own EULA and TOSes if it is not Bethesda herself who sells the mods. Not quite right in my opinion. The EULA gives Bethesda the right to "... distribute ... the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit". Perhaps it would be better to say that Bethesda built this in as a loophole which only they could exploit in the future. A good question, with no clear answer. Firstly Bethesda doesn't own the mod - though the EULA arguably gives them more rights than the modder who still owns it. In normal circumstances, the copyright holder (i.e. the modder) would be the only party with standing to enforce copyright. To me the most plausible solution would have to be some sort of joint action by modder and Bethesda. Another possibility would be for Bethesda/Steam to have terms within the agreement for sale of mods that give them the power to police the system - which comes back to your original assumption that Bethesda would police it (but not by virtue of their ownership of all mods). The EULA might be sufficient to solve the problem from a legal perspective, but doesn't solve the problem that it falls outside the community's expectations. I know that a substantial proportion of the games I play allow modding to some degree, though it's rarely supported as fully as Bethesda do. And it might say more about my gaming choice than about the wider gaming universe. It's an attractive prospect. I think the first major difficulty is building the underlying game engine (though perhaps an existing one could be used). It's going to be slow, as most coders would be working in their spare time, and there's probably a fairly limited number with the skills and enthusiasm to do it, and by the time it's finished it's probably been surpassed by the next generation of commercial games. Later stages should be easier - building an attractive world on top of the engine should be within the capabilities of numerous modders (like the Bethesda communities), so the problem is largely one of "cat herding" - keeping them moving in roughly the same direction... Loriel
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Post by jgf on May 10, 2015 23:09:08 GMT
I am struggling to understand the viewpoint expressed by everybody here. Perhaps it's the understandable attitude of "This is the way it has always been..." I admire the noble motives of those who do not wish to charge for their work, and mod for love rather than for money. But it seems unfair to try to banish others whose motives are less pure. Perhaps the modding community should explore the possibility of splitting into two, if the thought of sharing with others of different persuasions is too painful. It should be fairly easy to devise a suitable licence under which mods could be released to allow re-use only for non-commercial purposes (see the creative commons licences for example). I am sceptical that it's a plot by Bethesda to drive away modders, though I wouldn't rule it out. It seems more likely to me that it was an attempt to increase income (like the DLC scheme) - from their viewpoint, what's not to like about taking a 45% cut from the sale of somebody else's work... It certainly seems plausible that the next releases in the ES and FO series will be constructed to accommodate professional modders, which raises the question of where this community wishes to move next. There are numerous alternatives around, but few with the popularity of the Bethesda products. Loriel As previously stated I have no issues with payware per se, I use quite a bit in FlightSim. But the problem I see, even, to a degree, in the FlightSim community, is not a fragmentation of the modders but of the gamers - the "haves" vs the "have nots", the paying players vs the non-paying players (all too common in online games), the elitists who will respond to forum questions with "if you can't afford X, why are you wasting our time?" Then comes the conundrum of cost. For me online purchasing is much like writing checks in the real world (does anyone still write checks?) - even with PayPal anything less than ten dollars is not worth the effort. So, what would you pay to add one sword to Morrowind? Are you going to whip out the credit card, or undergo the PayPal procedure, for a 99 cent purchase? or $2.99? A large mod would be different, but what is the upper limit before enough people eschew it as too expensive, or consider a hacked version a viable option? (Though this will play right into the hands of Steam since you just click what you want and it's added to your account.) Another issue will be once one person has a dozen downloads of a payware mod, whether for one dollar or a hundred dollars, every "wannabe" legendary modder will put a price on their mods. And many modders will churn out dozens of uploads hoping one or two might actually generate some money. Eventually the market would stabilize, with standards of price and quality ...IF the game in questions lasts that long. FlightSim has been around that long; and 95% of the available payware is from commercial entities with their own websites, tech support, etc. ...not from individual modders, however talented. But, due to the volatility of the market and of gamers, at my most optimistic I do not see payware mods becoming viable, much less lucrative, in any other genre.
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Post by jgf on May 10, 2015 23:20:24 GMT
...Well there is one huge issue with paid mods for a TES or Fallout type game That's not mentioned. They are single player games. .... FlightSim has long had a thriving payware community and it is essentially single player. I can think of no other gaming community that could support the likes of Carenado or FSD-International.
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Post by charon711 on May 11, 2015 2:52:18 GMT
NVM
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Post by jet4571 on May 11, 2015 3:54:17 GMT
...Well there is one huge issue with paid mods for a TES or Fallout type game That's not mentioned. They are single player games. .... FlightSim has long had a thriving payware community and it is essentially single player. I can think of no other gaming community that could support the likes of Carenado or FSD-International. And as you said that started basically from the start, plus it's not exactly a fantasy game. Players of those types of games want more real world locations and planes so if the only place to get those is through a paywall then they will do it. Tes and Fallout are fantasy games and it will be harder to sell an outfit when there are plenty others for free. Also with TES and Fallout there's a history of free mods so even the next version will have trouble being profitable for mod authors. Bethesda and Valve? Sure they aren't spending a penny to make it happen so every penny they get is profit. Regardless I don't think it will be a successful venture for the modder for atleast 2 more releases and if there's some quality control so the market isn't destroyed.
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Post by jgf on May 11, 2015 18:48:14 GMT
But even with the established market in FlightSim payware accounts for probably less than 5% of the available downloads.
In other genres games typically haven't the longevity for payware to be lucrative. A few hundred downloads of a $5 item would gross a couple of thousand dollars, but Steam and the developer will each get a piece of the pie. For every Morrowind - 13 years and counting - how many games come and go in a year.
Though this could prove viable for Steam; they have a captive market of comparatively new gamers to whom Steam is the only source of games. Create an account and give Steam unfettered access to your system then all you need do is click on a game and it is downloaded and installed and your account is charged, patches and updates are automatically handled for you, you don't even need to know how to copy a file. So a catalog of payware mods fits right in; scroll a list and click the one(s) you want, installation is automatic and your account is charged. I cannot fault this from a marketing standpoint, and no doubt Steam fans will flock to such a system as mice to a full silo. But i do not see it as a positive for gaming or modding in general as it will further an elitist Steam community. (There have long been mods available on Steam. "Free" mods, not created or owned by Steam, but by gamers such as you or I. But to download these mods you must create a Steam account - NOT merely register to download but create an account and accept their intrusive bloatware on your system ...to download a "free" file they neither created nor own, to use in a non-Steam version of the game.)
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Post by hacklehoempornium on Jun 3, 2015 14:56:17 GMT
jgf: You're right, the paid mods / subscription-only game movement among developers is as tenacious as a honey badger. They will do everything in their power to get their way and they've got the money to make it happen. If they're backed into a corner by repeated failures they could simply stop making single player games and go online-only. I've been worrying about this for a while. There's nothing to stop them from selling dev kits cheap, receiving user-made mods, culling them in favor of only the best, and releasing them and charging users to download them. And (by justifying it with a proper EULA) then using the best of those accepted mods for the next release! The modding community for The Sims apparently beat back paid mods with every iteration of the game all the way up to Sims 4 - including relegating mods behind paywalls to relative obscurity. ModTheSims is the big home for mods for that game and aside from registering, all those mods are free. We need to figure out how they managed to not only hold back the tide, but also pen it in pretty tightly. Conversely the other way out of this is open-source games, but they haven't done very well in comparison to big budget games.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 15:07:03 GMT
The modding community for The Sims apparently beat back paid mods with every iteration of the game all the way up to Sims 4 - including relegating mods behind paywalls to relative obscurity. ModTheSims is the big home for mods for that game and aside from registering, all those mods are free. We need to figure out how they managed to not only hold back the tide, but also pen it in pretty tightly. This is exactly what the modding community needs to do. The Bethesda modding community that want to keep modding free needs to reach out to the SIMS modding community for help organizing this. Are you a member of the SIMS modding community and can you or someone please post a link to the main modding community website (s)?
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Post by jgf on Jun 3, 2015 18:20:16 GMT
... The modding community for The Sims apparently beat back paid mods with every iteration of the game all the way up to Sims 4 - including relegating mods behind paywalls to relative obscurity. ModTheSims is the big home for mods for that game and aside from registering, all those mods are free. .... Oh, I must now comment. I enjoy Sims 3, despite its bugs and the fact that it is an EA product. But I abhor most of its modding community. They are vehemently contentious, elitist, and rife with cliques and mutual admiration societies. Yes, all mods at MTS are free ...if you register (which, to me, means they are not "free"; you must give them an email address). Files at TSR are free, no registration - but you must deal with ads, pop-ups, and a 60 second delay before downloading ...unless you want to pay at least $3.50/month for a subscription. Before I proceed let us examine other modding communities - flightsim, racing sims, rpgs, fps games. Modders for these games freely share their files; if someone creates a texture pack they always state, "you are free to use these in your projects, but i would appreciate getting credit for them". It is not uncommon to download a mod containing a building from one person, clothing from another, a weapon from someone else, etc.; everyone is credited, you download and install one file. And the websites for these games are always welcoming to newcomers, who are encouraged to contribute, and no new mods are turned away unless they contain pirated content. Go to MTS, read the thread regarding uploading mods; your mod must pass inspection, if it is deemed worthy of MTS it will be allowed in the library. This is egregiously elitist and discouraging to newcomers. Now let us look at the Sims 3 community. Apparently no one allows anyone else to include anything they have created in another mod; not textures, not windows, not clothing, nothing. Period. This would not be so contemptible were it not for the fact everyone knows it is not the size of the mods you have but the number of individual mod files to be loaded that chokes the game and increases its instability. So what do they do? Make certain every mod you add requires as many separate files as possible. Download a house. Do you get one file containing that house to add to your mod folder? Nooo. You get one file with a basic house and a laundry list of two dozen other files you must track down, download, and install in order for it to appear as it does in the screen shot. Download a pre-made sim and you get a naked Barbie doll; "I used the hair from X, the eyes from Y, the makeup from Z, the shirt is from here, the pants from there", etc. etc. etc. Love the game (I love any game that lets me build things). Hate the community. (There are many nice people individually, when you deal with them via email, blogs, or their own sites.)
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Post by jgf on Jun 3, 2015 19:03:40 GMT
... Are you a member of the SIMS modding community and can you or someone please post a link to the main modding community website (s)? The official site is thesims3.com BUT, unless you have a brand new copy of the game you cannot register there. One manifestation of EA's attempt to stem the market in used games is to tie the registration number to the email used to create the initial account; so if you purchase a used copy you can still install and play it with no problem (you can also update it) but attempts to register an account at thesims3.com gets you "invalid registration, this number is linked to another account". Tech help will tell you to purchase a NEW game; if you badger them they will eventually offer to sell you a new manual, which contains a new, valid, number for $20 (depending on what you paid for your used copy this is usually equivalent to buying a new game to start with). Nearly anything you could get here, including tech help, can be found elsewhere. Other popular sites are: www.ModTheSims.info MTS is one of the largest sites. Free registration, forums, tons of downloads. Usually friendly but threads can become quite contentious, with name-calling, personal attacks, and such; management is rather elitist. This is the site I would recommend. www.thesimsresource.com Nice download library, requires no registration though you will have to wait 60 seconds for downloads to start unless you register; and unless you want to subscribe there are still delays. (And if you go to another browser tab to do something else while waiting ...the timer resets; so you must stay on that tab.) They are quite mercenary, constantly bombarding you to subscribe, become a premium member, etc. I go here rarely, just to get a file I cannot find elsewhere. www.carls-sims-3-guide.com/ Best source for basic information about the game, gameplay, tips and tricks, tutorials, guides for each EP and SP, etc.; well designed, easy to navigate. Small forum but very friendly. They're mostly concerned with Sims 4 now, but if you play Sims3 you will keep this bookmarked.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 22:45:05 GMT
... Are you a member of the SIMS modding community and can you or someone please post a link to the main modding community website (s)? The official site is thesims3.com BUT, unless you have a brand new copy of the game you cannot register there. One manifestation of EA's attempt to stem the market in used games is to tie the registration number to the email used to create the initial account; so if you purchase a used copy you can still install and play it with no problem (you can also update it) but attempts to register an account at thesims3.com gets you "invalid registration, this number is linked to another account". Tech help will tell you to purchase a NEW game; if you badger them they will eventually offer to sell you a new manual, which contains a new, valid, number for $20 (depending on what you paid for your used copy this is usually equivalent to buying a new game to start with). Nearly anything you could get here, including tech help, can be found elsewhere. Other popular sites are: www.ModTheSims.info MTS is one of the largest sites. Free registration, forums, tons of downloads. Usually friendly but threads can become quite contentious, with name-calling, personal attacks, and such; management is rather elitist. This is the site I would recommend. www.thesimsresource.com Nice download library, requires no registration though you will have to wait 60 seconds for downloads to start unless you register; and unless you want to subscribe there are still delays. (And if you go to another browser tab to do something else while waiting ...the timer resets; so you must stay on that tab.) They are quite mercenary, constantly bombarding you to subscribe, become a premium member, etc. I go here rarely, just to get a file I cannot find elsewhere. www.carls-sims-3-guide.com/ Best source for basic information about the game, gameplay, tips and tricks, tutorials, guides for each EP and SP, etc.; well designed, easy to navigate. Small forum but very friendly. They're mostly concerned with Sims 4 now, but if you play Sims3 you will keep this bookmarked. Thanks jgf; I am actually not a gamer and the SIMS is not a game that interests me personally. Although I love all the hair mods for TES games that are spawned from that community. Here's the thing, I want to reach out to some of the leaders for help and advice but I already know that the odds of probabilities are so slim that it would have to be someone from the SIMS community who is well known and also has an interest in TES. I reached out to some of the leaders on the Star Wars gaming/modding community and although I haed a great small 7 person shared PM going for a week in the end the bottom line was they didn't care. They all agreed that if it effected their community they would be interested in helping but otherwise they didn't want to make the time. They did however give me a few very good ideas, ideas that were close to my own and others that I never thought of. Still in the end it didn't spark any interest because they had no emotional investment. I fear going to the SIMS community with nothing in hand will result in the same divisiveness. I have not given up but have need of other plans to come to fruition so to not make similar mistakes again. We shall see what happens after the Bethesda conference in the next few weeks.
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Post by Dova on Jun 4, 2015 1:00:44 GMT
Any thoughts about the new refund scheme from Steam?
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Post by jgf on Jun 4, 2015 17:09:12 GMT
.... I want to reach out to some of the leaders for help and advice but I already know that the odds of probabilities are so slim that it would have to be someone from the SIMS community who is well known and also has an interest in TES. ... Don't know what you seek but I would still recommend MTS. Post in one of the general forums and you're sure to find some interest, though, as you stated, how long that interest lasts is speculative.
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Post by jet4571 on Jun 16, 2015 1:05:50 GMT
Todd Howard confirmed Fallout 4 mods on the Xbox during the MS E3 show. Also he stated they will be available for free. That's looking like good news for this subject, we wont be forced to sell Fallout 4 mods and that sounds like any future games will be the same. Doom 4 will also have "mods"(maps) available across all platforms and those wont be for sale either but they will be hosted at bethesda.net/ (black screen with a Square for me) but that might be because its across all platforms and that's the place for the consoles to get them and like Steam Workshop for Skyrim the official PC place. www.bethblog.com/2015/06/15/coming-soon-bethesda-net/
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